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What people are saying about Sci-Fi
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TOPIC: What people are saying about Sci-Fi
#8214
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Let me admit that I took celtchief wrong and we will move on, yes?

Absolutely, that was all handled well by both parties.

Are there really that many more people in your estimation L that play fantasy games than SF ones?
I know there are more people that play historicals than Fantasy and SF combined, but I do not see there being more Fantasy players than SF.
I see that here on this forum though & that might be where you get that idea, and that is only because Fantasy MM has a six year head start on SF MM.


Hm. Well, I suppose I was basing it on the popularity of Mage Knight, D&D minis, the games that seem so big in the market, being fantasy games. Of course, I overlooked 40K, which may be the most popular. Still, between WH, DDM, and MK, that's a lot of fantasy gamers. I was also thinking of RPGs, which is mainly how I use DF, and there it seems D&D is the biggest game in town -- and my thoughts may have been influenced by CCGs like Magic, as well. The games I see most often on shelves are fantasy, not SF -- and the biggest publications being Dragon, Dungeon, and White Dwarf, only one of which covers SF, and then only half the time. SF just struck me as smaller. But I wouldn't stake anything on it -- it was just my impression.

The problem with your argument L is that you are pointing at only the least complicated of the SF games out there.

Well, yes, that was deliberate. I was also pointing at what I took to be very popular games -- when simple games become popular, the number of casual gamers increases. Maybe before SWM and MW it was true that most SF gamers are somewhat exacting, but after those games became popular the ratio must have dropped, no? I'm not saying that SF games are themselves less detailed or structured, only that there is a rising number of SF games that seem to attract more fast-and-loose players.

L when you mention ... "casual" "beer n pretzels" gamers., are you speaking of all wargamers or just SF ones?

I'm just talking about any gamer who pays less attention to rules and more attention to having fun with friends. Beyond a certain point, keeping track of the rules and precise details takes the fun away for them. (these are the people who never used the encumbrance rules when playing D&D first edition)

DF needs to get the capital together to make releases a steady process rather than the jackrabbit start and stop business they currently are going at.

That does make sense. So when you say they handled the SF expansion poorly, you mean that they should have waited until they could have released more sets in a timely fashion? Makes sense. I suppose the only problem might be that they would want to take advantage of the SW minis game, and whatever popularity MW still has. If the really popular SF games go away in a few years, maybe DF didn't want to risk losing a window. But I recall your position on this sort of thing -- better to appeal to lots of gamers who play smaller games than aim solely for the one giant in the room.

L, the on-line business is only good if DF plans to leave the physical retail marketplace.

Yes -- you're right about the shops in the midwest being like the shops on the coast. I've always struggled to get local places to carry DF, they've never wanted to. Too expensive, too much shelf space. The one place that got some sets in seems to sell them only to me.

But maybe that just means DF should abandon brick-n-mortar stores. If they can do well online, why bother with a middleman? Hirst Arts does fine on his own.

Plain walls and floors seem to work smoother with the fantasy gamer than with the SF gamer.
SF interiors terrain without furnishings indicates a lack of commitment to the SF market and that does not seem to be a method of success succeeding.


Yeah, I can see that. Like I said, somewhere, the fantasy genre has at least labyrinths to offer, so an empty dungeon can still work. SF settings need to BE something, they need detail that establishes the setting more specifically.

Did I get to everything you pointed out L?

Yup, thanks. I agree, I'd love to see DF get some investors and be able to put out product on a regular basis. Still, it may work better for this company to stay small and just go on-line only. It seems to be closer to what the company would like.


L
Law
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#8215
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Are there really that many more people in your estimation L that play fantasy games than SF ones?
I know there are more people that play historicals than Fantasy and SF combined, but I do not see there being more Fantasy players than SF.
I see that here on this forum though & that might be where you get that idea, and that is only because Fantasy MM has a six year head start on SF MM.


Hm. Well, I suppose I was basing it on the popularity of Mage Knight, D&D minis, the games that seem so big in the market, being fantasy games. Of course, I overlooked 40K, which may be the most popular. Still, between WH, DDM, and MK, that's a lot of fantasy gamers. I was also thinking of RPGs, which is mainly how I use DF, and there it seems D&D is the biggest game in town -- and my thoughts may have been influenced by CCGs like Magic, as well. The games I see most often on shelves are fantasy, not SF -- and the biggest publications being Dragon, Dungeon, and White Dwarf, only one of which covers SF, and then only half the time. SF just struck me as smaller. But I wouldn't stake anything on it -- it was just my impression.


If you are including RPGs, you missed the serious granddaddy of them all which is an SF RPG:
Traveller
If you are including CCGs, you are missing three major licenses two of which are able to take on MTG:
Star Trek, Star Wars and Babylon 5
Then you have Decipher's new entry into SF CCGs, Wars, which is doing fairly well from what I have heard and read.
Plus, is there not also CCGs for Stargate SG-1 and Battlestar Galactica that are now doing well?
As far as clix are concerned, are not HeroClix doing just fine?
Those are considered SF.
Plus David Weber's Honorverse has or will hit wargames, RPGs, and CCGs over the next twelve months; another victory of technology versus magic.
SF is on the move and Fantasy is losing ground consistently under the SF assault these days.
Granted, the gains never seem to be permanent, but Fantasy has lost a lot of the ground that MTG and LOTR gained for it.
Even the expansions for the 4th ed. of GURPS have had an overwhelming bias towards SF over Fantasy.

The problem with your argument L is that you are pointing at only the least complicated of the SF games out there.

Well, yes, that was deliberate. I was also pointing at what I took to be very popular games -- when simple games become popular, the number of casual gamers increases. Maybe before SWM and MW it was true that most SF gamers are somewhat exacting, but after those games became popular the ratio must have dropped, no? I'm not saying that SF games are themselves less detailed or structured, only that there is a rising number of SF games that seem to attract more fast-and-loose players.


The good things about those simple games is that they leave the real SF gaming noviate hungry for more.
That is where the gamers I play with step in and get the good gamers connected up to the good SF games out there.
It is unfortunate that we must do that, but the current state of the gaming industry where they rob not just Peter to pay Paul, but Teresa, John, Mary and Andrew as well and the short American attention span coupled with the constant American need for gratification necessitate this action on our part.
The inconsistent actions by DF make it hard to fixate the American gamer on the product.

L when you mention ... "casual" "beer n pretzels" gamers., are you speaking of all wargamers or just SF ones?

I'm just talking about any gamer who pays less attention to rules and more attention to having fun with friends. Beyond a certain point, keeping track of the rules and precise details takes the fun away for them. (these are the people who never used the encumbrance rules when playing D&D first edition)


What we care about is flow L.
Many times that cannot be achieved by the rules actually.
That then results in pages of feedback to the companies about problems and suggestions with solutions.

I remember a bit of feedback I worked on back in 1998; it was when Stefan had a comment and suggestion card in every Dwarven Forge set sold.
I was posted in Maryland at the time, and my gaming group did not send back the card to him; we sent him an eleven page report with our suggestions and comments within.
That was the first time I mentioned to Stefan that there was a need for a SF MM.

Fun for us L is where a game flows smoothly as far as the mechanics are concerned so that we can concentrate on the Strat&Tact needed to succeed in our objectives.

We just have lots of fun without the beer; we generally do not use stims or downers even when away from the table; clouds the mind too much.

DF needs to get the capital together to make releases a steady process rather than the jackrabbit start and stop business they currently are going at.

That does make sense. So when you say they handled the SF expansion poorly, you mean that they should have waited until they could have released more sets in a timely fashion? Makes sense. I suppose the only problem might be that they would want to take advantage of the SW minis game, and whatever popularity MW still has. If the really popular SF games go away in a few years, maybe DF didn't want to risk losing a window. But I recall your position on this sort of thing -- better to appeal to lots of gamers who play smaller games than aim solely for the one giant in the room.


What DF should have done was have worked harder on getting more SF pieces done prior to release in Summer 2004 and then kept the releases coming for the first two years at least every four-to-six months.
What was a serious piece of FUBAR on this whole SF situation was on the SF furnishings!
The first furnishings set should have been released at the same time as the Starter and Passage sets possibly under a Roman Numeral code and then another set with each Greek letter expansion after that.
At this point we should be at Gamma with the IV furnishings set also released.
With the 'bits and pieces' release pattern DF has set for SF MM, DF could have easily re-worked the ABS, WAI & WAII sets along with the quite excellent narrow passage principle into SF Greek releases and have had personnel quarters, office environment, a sick bay and an operations area as the first four Roman Numeral releases with an armory on the way as V.
The current situation that SF MM find sitself in is all SNAFU that has to be guided back into the right direction.

SF is going to be around a long time L, probably a lot longer than most folks really realize.
Traveller has been around since the 70s.
BattleTech in some form or fashion since 1984.
Warhammer 40K since 1989 - the smaller epic scale version from even earlier than that.
StarGuard since 1982 I believe.
And that just names four really quickly.
There are several other universes that have had a successful business history lasting longer than 20 years.
Plus other games that have hooked on to even older IPs like Star Wars and Star Trek to name only two.

You aim at everybody L because the giant, ironically Hasbro's Star Wars right now along with GW, because the giants loose touch and gain pride and as a result gamers willfully rebel against them.
DF needs to place the nagging thought that DF 3D terrain is the constant for the gamer, not for the game they are playing.
That will evolve into constant endorsement of DF product no matter what RPG or wargame someone plays.

L, the on-line business is only good if DF plans to leave the physical retail marketplace.

Yes -- you're right about the shops in the midwest being like the shops on the coast. I've always struggled to get local places to carry DF, they've never wanted to. Too expensive, too much shelf space. The one place that got some sets in seems to sell them only to me.

But maybe that just means DF should abandon brick-n-mortar stores. If they can do well online, why bother with a middleman? Hirst Arts does fine on his own.


Your struggle typifies many gamers' struggles, but I do not think the problem is one that anyone is successfully solving.
DF needs to be able to appeal to whatever game that is being played.
Shoppe owners need to be shown how DF can make them serious money.
DF has to build relationships of trust with the shoppe owners, and then not break that trust.
Consistency is the key to most of that and unfortunately the only way that word can be used to describe DF MM is in the quality of the MM product.
The industry has no idea where DF will be in six months because their supplies are no way knowable three months down the line, let alone nine months to a year.
Their proximity of DF to financial ruin is just too narrow for true industry projections.

Plain walls and floors seem to work smoother with the fantasy gamer than with the SF gamer.
SF interiors terrain without furnishings indicates a lack of commitment to the SF market and that does not seem to be a method of success succeeding.


Yeah, I can see that. Like I said, somewhere, the fantasy genre has at least labyrinths to offer, so an empty dungeon can still work. SF settings need to BE something, they need detail that establishes the setting more specifically.


Hey, all right!
Someone is understanding!
Outstanding!

For us being somewhere or in something and having a real thing to do is just far more thrilling than just go in there and kill everything in sight by time you get to the end.
At least that is the view we have.
Maybe just going around killing things for the heck of some treasure is just the device for some folks out there.
I just do not understand why though.

Did I get to everything you pointed out L?

Yup, thanks. I agree, I'd love to see DF get some investors and be able to put out product on a regular basis. Still, it may work better for this company to stay small and just go on-line only. It seems to be closer to what the company would like.

L


Small can kill though, especially in business L.
For a business to succeed, it needs to grow and that requires a decent, consistent positive cash flow.
DF is trying, but are they nourishing the company correctly to maintain growth?
I can see they are trying, but I am seeing insufficient long term investment success in the first three genres and now they are adding a fourth.
Plants that grow out too far, too fast, must die back or be pruned back to last longer than the season.
I just hope that SF MM is not the growth that will be pruned back on the DF plant; that would be a mistake that would costs DF thousands of dollars in the medium run, let alone the long term effects.
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#8216
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Plus, is there not also CCGs for Stargate SG-1 and Battlestar Galactica that are now doing well?

Where are is the stuff on BG, haven't heard of this, the Only Current Cards i see for BG are a Set for the Show, i have heard of the Stargate game or something by Comic Images but not BS.
Ghenghis Ska
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
Classes of the Old Republic
Some RPG and mini stats including the Exodus and AAT (along with good source of a Mini scale version of the AAT).
 
#8217
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 7 Years, 4 Months ago  
Hi!!!!!
I must admit that I never swa this either - you sure it exists?????



European Dwarves!
Mandy Mayday
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#8218
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 7 Years, 4 Months ago  
Hi!!!!!
I must admit that I never swa this either - you sure it exists?????



European Dwarves!

What are you refering to, since that was writtem yes, there is a BSG Card game done by Wizkids games, here's a link to the page.
www.wizkidsgames.com/battlestar/

As for SG-SG1 Last i heard AEG (Alderac Entertainment Group) no longer had the license, but a new company is starting to make some minis for SG1 and i think Atlantis in 28mm. I heard about it on TMP a few months back, the manufactures will be Phonenix Icons, www.phoenix-icons.com/index.php, but other than i blurb on the home page about them comming soon "28mm Stargate SG-1 MINIS!" i don't see much more, i remember i saw a "jaffa" mini over at TMP but can't find it anymore now.
Ghenghis Ska
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
Classes of the Old Republic
Some RPG and mini stats including the Exodus and AAT (along with good source of a Mini scale version of the AAT).
 
#8219
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 7 Years, 4 Months ago  
As of today there are both SG and SG:A minis over there on the Icons site... They look fantastic, but appear to be more of a collectors thing than actual gaming minis... They say that they are 1:25 scale, the detail is impressive, but very specific... (In othwer words most of the minis are of specific characters)... They are beautiful though...


maj!
MyLordVoid
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#8220
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 7 Years, 4 Months ago  
MLV!!!

There you are! How’s it been going bro? The gang has been missing you…

Glad to see you around.

Mike
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#8221
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 6 Years, 4 Months ago  
One Sci-Fi market that is doing quite well in the States these days is Confrontation's prepainted mini game AT-43.

That's what brought me back to the forum here after a long absence. Prepainted Sci Fi terrain is a natural match, but the 30mm scale of AT-43 minis _might_ be a problem, also AT-43 requires alot of open space. Without stand alone floor sets, as much as I like the DF stuff there's no chance I'll get into it.

Re. the relative number of Sci/Fi gamers. Seems to me there is more of them than the Fantasy crowd!
Kenneth
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#8222
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 4 Years, 6 Months ago  
These are the Sci-Fi games I use my entire collection of MM terrain for:

Star Wars RPG
Farscape RPG
Serenity RPG
D20 Modern
Spycraft
Traveller
Robotech
Mechwarrior
Cyberpunk (2013/2020)
WoW RPG (SF = Gnomish realms)
Aliens RPG
Warhammer 40K RPG
Rifts
Marvel Superheroes
Heroes Unlimited
TMNT (Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, et.al)
TFOS (Teenagers from Outer Space)
Paranoia

Because of the scarcity of SFMM, I have been able to make quite adequate use of the DOE sets as expansion material for greater areas, and will be doing the same with the all the ROTAs.

One specific thing I could see in any future SF expansion is a slight ateration of the casts/paint scheme for the ROTA2 "Small Stairs" and "Curved Stairs", The 6x6 floors are ideal for small craft landing pads if finished "clean" and painted SF Style. The Stair modules make perfect SciFi stair-banks (better than the Ramps) for Grandiose rooms and halls, as well as Bridge section/level transitions. (I do a lot of stacking and off-leveling)
fulongamer
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Room x3 / Passage x3 / Deluxe x2 / Wicked1 / Wicked2 / F-Floors / ABS1 / Cavern x2 / Cavern Passage / CRW / CLS / Cavern Chasm x2
DoE x2 / DoE Room x2 / DoE Wicked / DoE Hellscape x3 / RotA x2 / RotA2 x3 / MBS x2 / MBE x2 / Traps 2 Set
SFS x3 / SFP x3 / SFAlpha x3 / SFBeta x3 / SFGamma
 
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