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Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces
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TOPIC: Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces
#66453
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 5 Months ago  
@Jackattack - I think we're all entitled to our own opinion, but I think you're overreacting a little on this.
AnimeSensei
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#66462
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 5 Months ago  
biowizard wrote:
I believe everyone is perfectly entitled to make molds and casts from everything they own for as long as they do not sell their casts and use them for anything but their personal use. This is the same for DVDs. You can make copies of them, as backup, for as long as you do that for your own use and do not distribute them. Is it really worth the money and effort for Game Tiles given their low prices? In my opinion, no.

Canadian Copyright (where we both live) does not cover making copies of items for personal use, only copies of music:
A "private copy" is a copy of a recorded track of music, or of a substantial part of such a track, that is made by an individual for his or her own personal use.
Part VIII of the Copyright Act allows consumers to copy recorded music for their own personal use. In exchange, the private copying levy was created to compensate music rights holders for private copies made of their music. Similar levies are collected in over 40 countries around the world. It's also referred to as "blank media tax".

For reference from the source: www.cpcc.ca/en/frequently-asked-questions

In the U.S. it's the Audio Home Recording Act of 1992.

All of this doesn't include making copies of other works of art. Copyright is all about the right to reproduce or to authorize others to reproduce. It would be, in fact, copyright infringement to make a copy of a DF piece as jackattack correctly states (albeit, excessively IMO).

The most appropriate course, in this case, is to actually contact Stefan or Jeff (it's actually easy enough to do) and ask permission to create personal copies. Ideally, they would ask for what you intend to do in writing and would respond, in writing, whether they allow you to do it or not. The copyright holder retains all rights to his/her work and always has final say in how it's used, thus they can also take away permission to use it as well and change any previous agreements.

Whereas in the U.S. your right to your creation can be sold, in the EU this is not the case - you will always retain your right to your creations (it's more nuanced, but good enough).

Of course, I'm not a copyright lawyer, so do the research if you're interested.
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#66464
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 5 Months ago  
While jackattack is definitely on the Lawful Good side of the debate, i agree with what he said and believe that his points were well laid out.

Legality isn't really the issue here (do you really think Jeff is going to sue someone for making a half a dozen extra tiles so he can expand his basement layout?) morality is, and as such it becomes a very individual decision. I am much more like jackattack. I don't download music for free, won't park at a yellow curb, and feel obligated to support the free web TV shows i enjoy (journey quest, standard action etc.) that is just who i am. Part of the reason i play RPG's is to play characters who do things that my real personality would never permit me to do!

Is it OK to photocopy some of the rules to hand out to your players?, Can i use that picture on my character sheet even though it is copyrighted?, Do i need to buy the Bestiary when all the stat blocks are on the SRD for free?

There is no definitive answer to these questions. In the end we all know and will do what is right for us. These discussions and most of life become contentious when we try to apply the standard of "what is right for us" to the actions of others.
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#66465
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 5 Months ago  
Personally I think he has just shown us how hard it is to make good looking 3D terrain.
I am full of joy that DF have put in all the effort and sell their sculpted pieces to us at a reasonable price.

This does 'reek' of a Hirst Arts type project / experiment. But as long as they are not sold nor mass reproduced then there is no harm in someone doing some weird stuff to the items owned.

Who knows, maybe he makes a new shaped tile we all love so much that DF build it!

Shared in the spirit of 'Hey guys - look what I have done' is part of what makes this forum brilliant.
(..and if ever I need a defence lawyer - I want Jackattack to be on my side!)

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#66466
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 5 Months ago  
kitenerd wrote:
While jackattack is definitely on the Lawful Good side of the debate, i agree with what he said and believe that his points were well laid out.

Legality isn't really the issue here (do you really think Jeff is going to sue someone for making a half a dozen extra tiles so he can expand his basement layout?) morality is, and as such it becomes a very individual decision. I am much more like jackattack. I don't download music for free, won't park at a yellow curb, and feel obligated to support the free web TV shows i enjoy (journey quest, standard action etc.) that is just who i am. Part of the reason i play RPG's is to play characters who do things that my real personality would never permit me to do!

Is it OK to photocopy some of the rules to hand out to your players?, Can i use that picture on my character sheet even though it is copyrighted?, Do i need to buy the Bestiary when all the stat blocks are on the SRD for free?

There is no definitive answer to these questions. In the end we all know and will do what is right for us. These discussions and most of life become contentious when we try to apply the standard of "what is right for us" to the actions of others.

I would have to disagree. Legality is entirely the issue.

For instance, do you know how many pages of a book you can legally copy, for your needs, say in a University project? How is that a question or issue of morality?

How about the example previously given of using the tiles as stamps vs. making an impression of them as the OP did? There's a subtle difference in use which makes all the difference in a matter of copyright but may not register as being any different in someone's moral perspective.

Laws, and in this case Copyright Laws which can vary from country to country, give us the framework from which to inform our conduct and decisions when presented with, what can often be, ambiguous situations which often are tangential to a given moral framework.

For instance, in Canada we don't actually have a clearly defined first sale doctrine and in the US it's on the books, but only applies to tangible goods yet is being increasingly challenged on digital media (ie. DVDs). Is there a clearly defined moral stance? Certainly not one you could use in a legal defense.

One of my favourite examples of copyright law is the true story of a photographer who was in the jungle taking pictures of monkeys. After awhile he put his camera down on a stump and sat a ways away to have lunch. As he ate he was amused to watch a particular monkey checking out his camera. In doing so, the monkey took a picture. So, who owns the picture? The owner of the camera or the individual who took the picture? If you thought, 'Obviously, the photographer.' I would point out that in copyright law it's very clear that the person taking the photo, even if it's not their equipment, is the sole copyright holder of that picture... now, in the case of the monkey it's debatable if we would actually confer copyright to it as it's an animal and not a person, but it doesn't automatically give copyright to the owner of the equipment either. In this case, the default position would likely be that nobody owns copyright of the photo. Why is this more than an academic scenario?... because a website which specifically posts content regarding copyright issues posted not just that story but the photos and the photographer, who's camera it was threatened the website with a DMCA takedown notice... only the copyright holder of the photo can do that... and the website was claiming 'fair use'...so, who's the legal copyright holder?

All that being said, I would agree that anything you are going to do in the privacy of your home is, well, your business and who would be the wiser for it?... but when you decide to post to a forum then that's when you expose yourself to (learning) all sorts of interesting legal things ;-)
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#66467
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 5 Months ago  
This falls a lot in the gray area here, but I think I fall into the making a mountain out of a mole hill side here. If the OP was actually making a mold of an actual DF piece and duplicating it to sell or give away, I would say that it would be clearly a violation of IP, but it is hard to copyright a 50mm square. If he had measured and cut a 50mm block or cardboard the effect would be the same as what the OP is doing. He is not duplicating the face of the tile where the art actually is and I feel that is where the test is here. He is sculpting his own squares in the tile and only using the size of the tile for his mold. However, if there are any real concerns it would be best if he cut his own 50 mm tile and used that for his mold.
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#66471
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 5 Months ago  
I would also like to point out that the OP was trying to show us what he did due to his love of the DF products. Not everyone can spend what others can (he said he had to trade for the product in the first place), and sometimes creative solutions need to occur to facilitate use in our hobby. (ie: woodblock elevations, legos, mods, etc.) He was showing us something that he did out of love of the product; though some may argue that it is an IP issue to make imprints (which I find no different than stamps), he definitely did not come her to be beaten down and told how horrible it was for him to stick a 4x4 DF square in a piece of clay. If I were him, I might not post again in these forums due to the public shaming.

I think we need to ask more questions and give more respect to those that offer up their creations here. This is the second time in a few months I've seen someone beat up on these boards for posting something they were proud of making. I for one want this to be a board full of encouragement and good times for all, and I'm sure 99% of us here would agree.

If he tries to sell stuff with DF imprints in it, then I say that would be a cause for an outcry, but for a non-casted square for use in his own home for his own games, it's really a non-issue to us and scares an innovative and creative individual away from our forums. I agree with the mountain out of a molehill remark. Let's let it rest and move on to more important things.... like ice caverns and Pokorny Paints. :)
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#66479
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 4 Months, 4 Weeks ago  
teazia wrote:
Hello,

Last year I traded a set of Bones I for two sets of DF Game Tiles plus stretch (so around 3 sets). They are pretty cool and I also purchased a few sets of the Cavern Tiles. I later found TheDMsCraft and all the cool vids on Youtube while looking for cheap ways to create dungeon dressing and such. Here are my tiles:






First I would like to say "You made a great trade"


While I like DF's tiles so much I would just save up for more, if i were going to make my own or needed to make bigger ones I would make them out of either a softwood like pine or plywood. Since plywood would match in thickness easier. I would cut it to match the size then cut the squares then get small gravel and hammer it into the surface then remove all the gravel I could and paint it to match. I would use the small gravel to make the pattern more random. Perhaps I might gravel and then cut the squares to avoid getting gravel down in the squares cuts.

Perhaps DF needs to do a second floor pack for the dungeon tiles with original 2x2 floor tiles and some 2x2 floor tiles with cracks and broken tiles.
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#66485
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 4 Months, 4 Weeks ago  
I have to agree with AnimeSensei and Brvheart in the above posts completely especially as to the tone of encouraging people and not seeing such simple things as an attack on DF.

I'm with Kodiakbear on the need for a simple box/bag of Floor Tiles.... We blast threw floor tiles so fast its crazy.

Just my thoughts!.....
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#66493
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 4 Months, 4 Weeks ago  
First of all, thank you JackAttack and others for standing up for me and Dwarven Forge. I really appreciate it. Some good points were made on behalf of artists everywhere and in protecting intellectual creations and property...I am not a lawyer, just an artist and entrepreneur:)

That being said, there is no real harm here by Teazia and it's OK with me....but I must admit, as anyone who has created anything would feel, of a certain momentary rush of blood when one see's something like this...we must fight these feelings we get, we must be strong and adultlike....like the small pangs of jealousy we get when our lovers or wives smile at another perhaps in full innocence....it is easy to succum to feelings of possessiveness....I know this was most likely innocently posted with a feeling of pride to show others....I know that feeling too:)

I do not feel like my business is threatened, not by any means, even if one looks at it in a way that would say, hey, this person is posting on my own company's forum a particular method to create something I am trying to sell...he is maybe...encouraging folks to make their own and stop buying my products and doing so on my very own site....lol....

in this instance, I do not feel threatened, but I must admit to a tiny nudge of uneasy feeling because, after all, I am human, and also an artist, and artists are notorious for their jealousy of their works...much like dragons...

So, for that, thank you for the lively discussion, and for those who saw fit to stand up for me...no hard feelings at all for those who argued the other side either, we are all enthusiast's here...

I hold no grudge to Teazia either...he/she is a creative spirit like myself and others here...we have many "modders" here who i respect greatly and even buy/trade with myself (wink, wink keebleorc) I think such folks make our community more awesome as a whole and a place to visit and share idea's and kool creations...

I only humbly ask to remember that we are, after all, a store here and our rights and feelings should be considered as well...(I would not walk into a hardware store and plant a sign showing customers how to make their own hammers and shovels...and give the name of the place where such things could be bought...that doesn't seem quite right to me)

The big picture is this: I am happy Teazia is in the hobby to begin with and has great enthusiasm, a fellow enthusiast! He/she did buy some of my creations after all which is great! This enthusiasm shall be shared with others and thus help to grow the hobby, which in turn helps us all! What we need is for more people across the world to discover our great passion!
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#66498
Re:Alternative to DF GT Floor Pieces 4 Months, 4 Weeks ago  
First if all I am not a "modder" as I don't have the talent for it and don't usually even buy "modded" DF pieces. Nor do I buy the third rate copies that seem to be always available on Ebay. They are of inferior quality and it does not support Stephan as the original artist. I am, a sometimes writer and game designer so IP IS important to me which is why I hesitated to comment here. As I stated, this kind of falls into a gray area. As Stephan is not threatened by it, I think we can put it to rest, but we should be careful about crossing the line which the OP got close to especially by posting it on the companies Forum. If he was posting a "how to duplicate dwarvinite" I would join in quickly in the chorus especially if his intent was to sell or even give it away.
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