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Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch
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TOPIC: Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch
#63693
Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch 5 Months, 1 Week ago  
Over in the “The NEXT kickstarter?! Number 3!” thread, i had made a comment about how i felt Medieval Buildings had to be daub & wattle because it was more visually interesting than most other architecture of the period (especially when you take into account that we are only dealing with walls - not eaves gables roofs etc.)

jimibones83 wrote:

Obviously you wouldn't be able to build this exactly, but I'd like them to have this kind of feel. This is the type of architecture I like to fill my fantasy towns with



My first thought was “My point exactly. Take off the roof and the push outs and what you have left is a brick wall and a daub & wattle wall.” I refrained from being snarky, mainly because it doesn’t serve any purpose. But also because I love that building. It is exactly what i want my fantasy world to look like too!

BTW - Tabletop World makes gorgeous stuff - check them out if you haven’t


The longer I thought about it the more I thought “Why couldn’t we make something like that?” Below is my first rough sketch of the idea that that line of thinking produced. (Slate Blue is the new proposed wall design. Cream colored wall would be daub & wattle)





If we add corbels to the outside of the wall, we can support a second story without the need for pilars. Doing this shifts the second floor 1” off of the 2x2 grid which might be problematic to some. Also the weight on the wall might be tippy. Adding the light blue section (effectively making the footprint 2x3) gives the lower wall more counter weight and keeps everything on the grid.

I like this idea a lot. Doing this not only makes two story layouts easy, it also means we have an easier time reaching the first floor minis without knocking the second floor pieces out of place. As a bonus, there is a nice overhang outside for the local cutpurse to loiter under.
kitenerd
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#63697
Re:Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch 5 Months, 1 Week ago  
I have three of Tabletop's buildings, the cottage, the Black Smith's Forge and the Timbered House and they are all of outstanding quality. His shipping is reasonable and he ships quickly. I also have his Supplies and Furniture packs, they are scaled appropriately.
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#63854
Re:Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch 5 Months ago  
Since i posted this i have been worried about the “tippy” problem. I decided to prototype one for viability. I put two curved stairs together with blue tack and stuck them to the outside of a wall. If everything is perfectly blanced and no one touches anything (or god forbid puts a mini on the second story) one 2x2 tile will hold up a wall. (If you look closely you will note it is cheated in slightly... it is RIGHT at the tipping point). That will never do.



Adding an extra inch to the lower wall gives it plenty of counter weight to hold the second story very stably.



There is so much counter weight that you can even slide the tile way over. Not that you would want to, but i just wanted to show how solid this is with the extra piece.



I didn’t take pictures of it, but it will also support a Master Maze wall without tipping. The MasterMaze is so heavy it pulls the blue tack off and eventually falls over because of that ;)
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#63863
Re:Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch 5 Months ago  
Just to play devil's advocate, what happens if you turn the bottom piece around? The wall would remain whatever style, but the floor/ground would be cobblestone or sidewalk since it would be on the outside of the building.

This has the advantage of eliminating the 2"x3" footprint which at the very least requires a 3"x3" corner. The 2"x3" footprint doesn't violate the 2"x2" grid rule if a building is rectangular (since the pieces are used in opposing pairs), but it does (twice) if a building is "L" shaped.

This has the drawback of putting the usual gap at each outside corner of a building. A floor/ground tile with an upright beam or pillar at one corner could fill that in, if it's a big deal. (But that seems like the passage gap discussion all over again.)
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#63868
Re:Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch 5 Months ago  
This reminds me of the many discussions I have had with Jim at MBA over ground scale VS Playability. I call it the Doctor Who principle. The room needs to be larger than the ground scale of the building in order to use the interior for games. The foot print has to be to scale for the building to look right. Catch 22. Lucky for me I play fantasy games and can fudge.

A 10 foot scale over hang will not look right on a fantasy building.It won't mention it will not stand up. I am not sure a 5 scale foot over hang will look right.



Moving the post/wall inboard 2 scale feet will provide a nice overhang and still hold up the floor.



This is the old T shaped narrow passage tile repurposed to building foundation. The Old fourway narrow passage tile is a superb foundation tile.



Narrow passage tile as foundation and riser blocks.



Is there a reason this or the fourway narrow passage tile can not be made in PVC?
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#63869
Re:Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch 5 Months ago  
Your idea has merit as well - i was thinking about building the box, you are clearly thinking outside the box ;)

Your version is more of a manufacturing challenge being u shaped - becomes like a narrow passage piece (which we know is possible) - yours would likely be stronger and offer even more support. Other than the corner issue, i think your way might be superior.

Not sure about the "tippy" factor. With my design (lets call it the S-wall) the weight of the wall is only 1.5" from the bulk of the support. With yours (the C-wall) it would be 2", because you have a full square on the interior of the wall. The C-wall offers more support, but i worry with the weight being that far over and dwarvenite being bendy.

Another potential drawback is your way sort of gets into the "negative space" debate by building on the outside of the structure. That can of worms is open elsewhere...
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#63874
Re:Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch 5 Months ago  
If there is only one tile stacked top of another, I don't think the weight would be enough to bend a wall. If there are multiple levels stacked, and a custom roof on top of that, then bendage becomes a factor no matter which way the bottom tile is facing.

I think a 5' scale overhang is best. It's enough to get the point across, but not so much that you lose two rows of squares around the perimeter due to overhead obstruction of tall minis.

I didn't buy medieval sidewalks myself, but Stefan posted a picture of sidewalks and raised crosswalks dating back to ancient Rome. So I will stipulate to sidewalks in a medieval city, especially if they make a building element work better. But I'd still rather not tile every street and alley and cetera on the table.

My preference -- given enough money, adequate storage, and a good supplier -- would be to use precast buildings for outdoor stuff, then use DF when things move inside. I wouldn't sweat the Doctor Who issue, as most precast buildings I've seen couldn't stage a decent melee in the space available inside.
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#63875
Re:Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch 5 Months ago  
BTW, this type of building is timber frame (or half-timber). The space between the timbers was filled with wattle and daub, stones, bricks, or even plaster. The fill was frequently plastered over (unless it actually was plaster, I hope) which is why many of them look the same.

There's a very informative (and mercifully short) entry in Wikipedia.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_frame


This was not the only type of construction in medieval cities, however. Stone and brick for commercial and residential buildings were common as well.
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#63881
Re:Medieval Building Walls - concept sketch 5 Months ago  




I have not had time to build my idea yet. I think we can use more columns if The old T narrow tile is not going to be produced in PVC
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