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Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS?
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TOPIC: Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS?
#62022
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
@ Steven Carroll +1

As a businessman of my own, I can't but agree and I suspect the vast majority have no idea what is needed to run one.

Bring on an update!
Belakor
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#62024
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Steven Carroll wrote:
IF people honestly think that the increase in price is Stefan taken advantage of our enthusiasm to cash in even more, then those people do not trust nor respect him or the company.


Did you not previously say:

"Come on, really? They are a company. They are out to make money."

But you're right, I do not have 100% trust in some guy I've never met and who's trying to sell me a product. I don't think Stefan is a chortling mastermind who kicks puppies and tries to capture rainbows, but let's face it: he is obviously interested in his company's success and profit margins. He should be. He should just keep in mind that some people, like myself, pledged a lot of money straight up this time, based on confidence in him and his product. I might slash my pledge in half, depending on how things turn out. That's not a threat, just an acknowledgment that neither side is running a charity. Increasing costs, even though that might reduce sales, might be the right decision for his company, and if it is, he should do that. Anyhow, I'm going to go back to kicking puppies and capturing rainbows.
left4dead2acc1
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#62025
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
You are misquoting me actually. There is a difference in selling at a Profit and taking people for a ride as is being suggested. A BIG difference.
Steven Carroll
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#62027
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
left4dead2acc1 wrote:

But you're right, I do not have 100% trust in some guy I've never met and who's trying to sell me a product. I don't think Stefan is a chortling mastermind who kicks puppies and tries to capture rainbows, but let's face it: he is obviously interested in his company's success and profit margins.


If by "success" you mean "survival", and by "profit margins" you mean "netting enough from KS that DF can escape from the vicious cycle of not having the liquidity to restock for months and months", then I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Otherwise, I think you are merely succumbing to a rather facile deconstruction of what we are seeing.

I don't know Stefan, and I haven't seen DF's books. But I _do_ have trust, because I have lurked here on the forum for awhile, and I saw the first DF KS first-hand, and there has been absolutely no indication that Stefan is an opportunistic profiteer, and many indications that he is anything but. I think that he is simply trying to navigate between ensuring the survival of his company -- part labor of love, and part vanity project -- without pricing the product out of reach for too many people. Obviously this is basically the same balancing act that lots of businesses face, but then you brought "don't want our enthusiasm to be taken advantage of" into it.
willmontgomery
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#62028
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
As long as I get the stuff I think are worth my money I couldn't care less if I pay for a company's bank account.

Now when is that new update suppose to be up?
Belakor
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#62030
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Some have correctly noted, in comparison, that this KS is playing out differently than the last one. OK, lets take a step back and look at this...lets look at the conditions under which the two KSes were initiated (if any of my facts are wrong, please correct me).


The first, a year ago, was conceived under circumstances that included the company possibly folding and going under. In essence, that KS was about survival, expectations and hopes were dim, and that first Kickstarter was something of a Hail Mary pass for the end zone. It was clear that the final result was a very pleasant shock to Stefan and Jeff, that brought new life surging into the company.

The product in the first was essentially a re-release of previous products, and simple ones at that.

And the goal was simple: acquire 1 or 2 metal molds in order to lower the cost barrier to entry for new fans.

The reason for the unpainted tiles in the first KS was to increase affordability, and therefor potential customer base/community. (Which do you have more of...time or money?) It makes nice bullet point that you can customize pieces that are unpainted, but that can be done with painted as well.



This time, the goals are different. The total and overwhelming success of the first Kickstarter has encouraged DF to think bigger, and encouraged grander ambitions and dreams. Stefan is an artist, the last year has been a learning experience for the DF company with metal molds (4"x6" warping, for example), so this KS has the following goals:

1) Further expand the community of DF users
2) Expand the DF product range with ALL NEW products (unlike last year)
3) Achieve previously uncontemplated levels of quality and definition in the new medium
4)...while simultaneously incorporating lessons learned from the 1st KS.

So what you have is a brand new line, using brand new pieces and brand new technology (at least for DF), which also uses more of the PVC raw material per piece. Its a fairly safe assumption that the higher volume pieces counteracts the tendency to warp, since Dwarvenite warping is observed primarily in long, thin pieces. In other words, using more of the material increases the quality of the product, by counteracting warping.

Next, the fact that these are all new pieces means, from the outset, that Stefan put in a lot more work and time for these new pieces. Does he not deserve to be paid for working to create something for others to purchase?

I have been a DF customer for years, buying in bits and batches, here and there. The first KS was a buy in for me because I knew it would never be cheaper. This time I am truly excited about what can be done with the new set.


There is also the cost issue of international shipping, which, if I understand it correctly, hurt DF in the last KS. Yet there is no ugliness or rancor from them on that issue. Does that earn them no credit at all?

People should try to keep in mind, DF was looking at shutting down this time last year. If DF is adding a small premium in order to create a buffer, or nest egg, my answer to that is: "Good! I hope I never again see DF in the position they were in last year."



If you had been here for the water tiles recall, or received a free Dwarven Forge set because they were out of stock on something you ordered, then you would know that these are genuinely good guys, who care about their customers, and have earned, and deserve, the benefit of the doubt.

From me at least, they will always have it.
seraphic
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#62031
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
well said seraphic.

I for years wanted to buy DF products. pick up a few accessories and miniatures over the years, but that was all i could afford. DF GT changes that for me. the chance to get DF products at a much lower price and the sets being more damage proof was a now brainer. with cost of addons I paid about $1.09 a pc.

I am in this KS because I know I will get a great deal at the end of the day. I also knew it would be more expensive per piece this time around cuz Stefan kept saying that .... a lot. with my 5 unpainted as of today i am at $1.59 a pc, I expect that will drop over the next 20+ days. it will be more expensive than the last one, but from what I have seen of the product I currently own, it will be well worth it.

Just my opinion and it is worth what you paid for it ..... just like DF products.



EDIT: w00t!! just became an orc
TK 266
Order 66? Is that the kung pao chicken?
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#62032
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
It's not hard to see that profit margins on miniatures, 3d terrain, and accessories are typically thin across the board (unless you happen to be Games Workshop, maybe). Even Reaper stretched themselves thin with their first Kickstarter, so if DF needs higher margins to feel safe this time around, that's entirely fair and rational. I believe we'll all benefit from that in the long run.

On the other hand, I'm just a lowly strapped for cash customer myself. I care about playable space per dollar, and inch for inch, the previous Kickstarter's value was excellent. This time, not so much. The price increase for caverns is exactly what I expected, but the fewer pieces per set is still disappointing. That's an entirely fair and rational view for a consumer.

As a fan, however, I'm optimistic that the value will be there by the end, and I don't feel like complaining too much when we're not even a week into this. It's more fun to be supportive and constructive around here.
Null
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#62034
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
seraphic wrote:
Some have correctly noted, in comparison, that this KS is playing out differently than the last one. OK, lets take a step back and look at this...lets look at the conditions under which the two KSes were initiated (if any of my facts are wrong, please correct me).


The first, a year ago, was conceived under circumstances that included the company possibly folding and going under. In essence, that KS was about survival, expectations and hopes were dim, and that first Kickstarter was something of a Hail Mary pass for the end zone. It was clear that the final result was a very pleasant shock to Stefan and Jeff, that brought new life surging into the company.

The product in the first was essentially a re-release of previous products, and simple ones at that.

And the goal was simple: acquire 1 or 2 metal molds in order to lower the cost barrier to entry for new fans.

The reason for the unpainted tiles in the first KS was to increase affordability, and therefor potential customer base/community. (Which do you have more of...time or money?) It makes nice bullet point that you can customize pieces that are unpainted, but that can be done with painted as well.



This time, the goals are different. The total and overwhelming success of the first Kickstarter has encouraged DF to think bigger, and encouraged grander ambitions and dreams. Stefan is an artist, the last year has been a learning experience for the DF company with metal molds (4"x6" warping, for example), so this KS has the following goals:

1) Further expand the community of DF users
2) Expand the DF product range with ALL NEW products (unlike last year)
3) Achieve previously uncontemplated levels of quality and definition in the new medium
4)...while simultaneously incorporating lessons learned from the 1st KS.

So what you have is a brand new line, using brand new pieces and brand new technology (at least for DF), which also uses more of the PVC raw material per piece. Its a fairly safe assumption that the higher volume pieces counteracts the tendency to warp, since Dwarvenite warping is observed primarily in long, thin pieces. In other words, using more of the material increases the quality of the product, by counteracting warping.

Next, the fact that these are all new pieces means, from the outset, that Stefan put in a lot more work and time for these new pieces. Does he not deserve to be paid for working to create something for others to purchase?

I have been a DF customer for years, buying in bits and batches, here and there. The first KS was a buy in for me because I knew it would never be cheaper. This time I am truly excited about what can be done with the new set.


There is also the cost issue of international shipping, which, if I understand it correctly, hurt DF in the last KS. Yet there is no ugliness or rancor from them on that issue. Does that earn them no credit at all?

People should try to keep in mind, DF was looking at shutting down this time last year. If DF is adding a small premium in order to create a buffer, or nest egg, my answer to that is: "Good! I hope I never again see DF in the position they were in last year."



If you had been here for the water tiles recall, or received a free Dwarven Forge set because they were out of stock on something you ordered, then you would know that these are genuinely good guys, who care about their customers, and have earned, and deserve, the benefit of the doubt.

From me at least, they will always have it.



Now I feel like a total a$$. Well said my friend. I just read in the forums that Stefan (finally spelled his name right, sory man) was essentially starting over at square one. He didn't really make much on the last KS, so in the interest of someone wanting this product and future products from DF to succeed, you got to charge what you need to to make a living man.

I envy you in that you are doing what you love. most of us poor schmucks are working in jobs we can't stand because we feel we have too.
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#62035
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Seraphic ~ usually I roll my eyes at the extended micro-analyses that seem to appear constantly on gaming forums and Kickstarter comments pages. But your post stands out as intelligent and well-reasoned, I think a very useful perspective on things.

I've only been a DF customer since the last KS campaign, but I too am firmly convinced that these are good folks who care about their customers. Like anyone else I'm hoping to get lots of great stuff from my current KS pledge, and the better the value the happier I'll be, but I'm entirely supportive of them doing what they need to financially to insure the continued viability of the company. Everyone will vote with their $ according to their own assessment of things; but I expect everyone, company and customers, will do very well out of the current campaign. (There's a reason why KS is popular; run well, it makes a great business model.) And I'm sure it will only get better as the remaining days unwind.
GriffinTamer
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#62038
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
amykins3 wrote:


Now I feel like a total a$$. ...snip...



Well, apologies then; that's not my intent.

GriffinTamer got it: perspective

What someone may be doing may not be what you would like, but they may still be trying to do their best for you.
seraphic
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#62039
Re:Any Semi-Official Updates on the Caverns KS? 7 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
willmontgomery wrote:
left4dead2acc1 wrote:
If by "success" you mean "survival", and by "profit margins" you mean "netting enough from KS that DF can escape from the vicious cycle of not having the liquidity to restock for months and months", then I believe you have hit the nail on the head. Otherwise, I think you are merely succumbing to a rather facile deconstruction of what we are seeing.


That's a good point, and I'm sorry if my choice of words offended you (and I thought I made that very clear by insisting that Stefan does not, in fact, try to capture rainbows and steal the joy of small children), but like I said, neither side is running a charity, and while I do not think this will be the case, I would be awfully peeved if this KS was simply a glorified pre-order system. While I would love to be a continued customer of DF, for a long time I figured I would never own any of their product because it was relatively expensive and I'm not a hardcore gamer. I bought in the first time around because I figured it's "now or never." If this time around is, "Well, it's now or later," then my buying habits change accordingly.
left4dead2acc1
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