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Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS
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TOPIC: Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS
#56801
Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Below is an great assessment of the challenges of the cavern KS compared to the first KS by Smogma.


Smogma wrote:
Well, I think the future KS will be quite different. I'm sure it will have a higher funding goal that the Dungeon Tiles $50,000. Remember, the Dungeon Tiles base sets really only had 4 unique pieces. The Caverns base set will certainly require more unique pieces than that. I don't think it matters if the funding goal is $100,000 or $200,000 - whatever it is, I'm sure funding will be reached the very first day. Perhaps an unpainted set may cost $100 instead of $65? I don't know. But since this project will inherently need more unique tile molds, the KS may need to end up making $3 million to be equivalent (in terms of success) to the $1.9 million in Dungeon Tiles?

These numbers are ballpark, but this is close to what was produced in the original kickstarter, somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 molds.
~(6x) Wall pieces
~(4x) Floor pieces
~(9x) Door pieces
~(18x) Stairs / Accessories / free standing walls

Now, these pictures aren't perfect, just trying to convey an idea:

~(12x) cutting 4x4 pieces into 2x2 walls


~(25x) variety of accessories


Maybe you'll need at least ~(4x) different floors, ~(4x) several different shore pieces (straight, curved, etc), I haven't even listed chopped up pieces from the passages...


I'm just saying I wouldn't underestimate how many molds need to be made to make a nice set of Caverns, without going into pieces with niche appeal.


Others have expresses some of these Challenges so I thought it was good for discussion.

Looking at Smogma's image chopping up the resin caverns I see 14 pieces (his 12 +2 for floors) this happens to be the number of pieces each multi set order got at 1 million. So we may need to get to a million just to get all 14 pieces for a cavern. I had expected the cavern KS to have a $250,000 pledged goal but perhaps that is still to low. In the first KS the big add-on with lots of pieces came at a million if in the cavern KS did free standing walls at a million as add-ons then the KS will need to do very well so we can still get chasm/shore pieces.


If my above thoughts seam overly tough, I meant for this topic to be a very hard look at what could be possible for DF to do based on what they were able to do on the last KS.
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#56804
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
You only need 40 molds if you only put a single piece on any given mold, and we know that a mold can hold up to three castings. I don't think they all have to be the same piece.

The basic pieces remain Straight Wall, Curved Corner, and Floor. (Door pieces being unnecessary.)

The original resin Cavern Set only had 1 unique Floor, 1 unique Straight Wall, and 2 unique Corners.
The original resin HellScape (1) Set had 1 unique Floor, 1 unique Straight Wall, and 2 unique Corners.

GameTile cavern Floors may stick with one unique piece. The less detailing is sculpted into the floor, the easier it is to get away with this, and GameTile caverns won't have water or lava motifs included in the sculpts. (As far as we know now.)

GameTile cavern Curved Corners probably need at least two variants, just so we don't ever have to put two of the same unique piece side by side in a large multi-piece corner. Three variants would be plenty to shuffle around so that different corners of a cavern aren't repeats or mirrors of each other.

GameTile cavern Straight Walls probably only need two or three variants, for the same reasons as Curved Corners.

That's 5-7 unique pieces. If DF were to make one mold for each type of piece (floor, wall, corner) that's three molds. And since that allows three Floor pieces in that mold, there could be three variants for those as well. (Actually, any combination of pieces on three molds allows for three Floor variants.) If they can only fit two pieces on a mold, that's four molds (and possibly two Floor variants).

I would throw a Diagonal Wall into this mix, just because the 2"x2" footprint doesn't allow for big, wide corners like the 4"x4" footprint does, and diagonals are a good way to open up a corner. If this is an accent (or just a corner variant) it only needs one unique instance, if it is a staple it needs two or three variants. That's a fourth (or fifth) mold.

I don't expect to see passage pieces. Even if the "U" profile is possible with metal molds, standard passages are 2.5" wide to allow two full squares between the parallel walls, and cavern passages might have to be even wider to accommodate the uneven natural stone walls. It is much easier (from a production standpoint) to simply put two rows of Straight Wall pieces opposite each other. Alternating Curved Corners could be used for narrow diagonal passages. If Diagonal Walls are a staple, two opposing rows make a diagonal passage as well.
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#56807
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Interesting speculation here...I'll spill some beans...currently the most challenging part is the thickness of the walls and avoiding undercuts while still making them look like Caverns...as far as variations of pieces, that will probably be something that stretch goals will need to reach...one thing about the 2X2 imprint is that one can really create the shapes they want much easier which has me very excited!
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Stefan Pokorny

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#56808
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Jack, I think you are completely wrong about that. Original Cavern pieces are 4x4. That automatically makes each current individual "straight wall" or "curved wall" the equivalent of TWO 2x2 future tile pieces.

Only have ONE 2x2 cavern straight wall tile would result in a ridiculous pattern like this:


Having only TWO variants of a straight wall tile would actually be the same as having only ONE single 4x4 cavern straight wall tile, exactly like this:


Even three straight walls wouldn't be enough to break up the monotony. The same applies to floor tiles, curved walls, etc.
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#56812
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Stefan wrote:
Interesting speculation here...I'll spill some beans...currently the most challenging part is the thickness of the walls and avoiding undercuts while still making them look like Caverns...as far as variations of pieces, that will probably be something that stretch goals will need to reach...one thing about the 2X2 imprint is that one can really create the shapes they want much easier which has me very excited!


Thanks for the spill.
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#56813
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Smogma, Please refrain the use of emotionally charged sentences such as "you are completely wrong". This forum has always been very civil and most users would like it to remain this way. Jackattack knows very well that the resin Cavern Set is 4*4 and Stefan made it clear that the upcoming cavern KS will be 2*2 due to PVC molds constraints (link).

The Cavern Game Tiles 2*2 Straight Walls will be new sculpts that Stefan will make sure align properly...
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#56814
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
I agree with Jack on the likely composition of a GT cavern base set.

Actually I could even see them launching the KS with the same low funding goal and only 4 sculpts (floor, wall, corner, accent) just like the existing GT line. And then do something like many of the mini-board games do and alternate stretch goals that add additional scuplts (without increasing the number of pieces in the core set) with ones that give bonus pieces. The additional scuplts would apply to upgrading the core set for backers and post-KS sales, while the bonus pieces are the pure KS bonus.

This would let them fund quickly at a low level. They know they'll still quickly reach the extra scuplts and improve it, but it makes the KS story more compelling.
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#56826
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Yes, one unique Straight Wall would give us one very repetitive sequence for a cavern wall of any length.

Two Straight Wall variants would give us four possible sequences for a cavern wall two pieces long, eight possible sequences for a cavern wall three pieces long, sixteen possible sequences for a cavern wall four pieces long, and so on.

Three Straight Wall variants would give us nine possible sequences for a cavern wall two pieces long, twenty-seven possible sequences for a cavern wall three pieces long, and so on.

And there was "only ONE single 4x4 cavern straight wall tile", until the Cavernous Rivers Set added only ONE single 4" long free-standing cavern straight wall. No one ever felt the need to call it ridiculous before...
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#56829
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Don't fret Smogma, when building Caverns one rarely builds in straight lines...throwing a curve here and there also serves to break up any repetition...nevertheless....there will no doubt be more than 1 straight wall piece...maybe as many as 4 although it may depend on some factors...I will promise you that whatever happens the Cavern will be awesome to behold or I will quit and return to being a full time artist:)
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#56832
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Stefan wrote:
I will promise you that whatever happens the Cavern will be awesome to behold or I will quit and return to being a full time artist:)
From what I've seen, I think we can at least trust that the next Kickstarter won't move forward until you're sure it will be awesome. Some of us can afford to wait, and hopefully the rest won't kill me for mentioning that. Ahem.
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#56838
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 1 Week ago  
On a side note, real caverns frequently have fairly sizable sections that are a bit monotonous and uninteresting. The reason to trudge through all that is for the rooms and features that depart from that. They are typically truly spectacular. I have been on several tours of both Mammoth and Onyx caves in Kentucky, I have hiked through Old Man cave in Ohio, and been through countless smaller caverns in many Midwestern states.

There is one room in Mammoth that has a large set of columns arranged like a large waterfall that is pretty awesome. I have also been spelunking in Mammoth and a couple caves in southern Indiana. The folks that run Onyx cave wouldn't let us go spelunking even with waivers... oh well, they own the land there, their call.

There are some pretty awesome features that could be used as inspiration for a future resin "cavern accessory" set. I say resin since dwarvenite would hard pressed to hold enough detail.
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#56907
Re:Challenges and steps in the Caverns KS 11 Months, 1 Week ago  
Stefan wrote:
Don't fret. I will promise you that whatever happens the Cavern will be awesome to behold or I will quit and return to being a full time artist:)


You are a full time artist.

Your the artist of gaming worlds.

Your art is better than paintings that just hang on a wall or busts on a piano.
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