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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?
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TOPIC: New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?
#8970
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
Also, Nanite, if you want, you can go the Hirst Arts route and use 1/4" foamcore as a 'subfloor' and build your DF on THAT, and have even larger buildings!
OR, you can get as crazy as I did, and use either Fantasy or SF floor pieces to build a BIG floor by making a mold of multiple pieces and then pour your own in resin. It's more work, but then again, ANYTHING that adds usability to the medium is worth the effort! As always, I checked with Jeff (as business manager at DF) to make sure they don't object, and he's never complained, as long as it's clearly understood, this stuff is for MY use only - and, I DO NOT duplicate anything they already make; I don't do 4x6 or 6x6 floors, I DID do 6" SF walls, but destroyed the mold and both pieces after the Beta came out with them (mine looked rotten by comparison anyway; who'd WANT 'em?). As long as I keep things that way, Jeff doesn't scream at me, and I don't see why he'd scream at you. If you're interested, let me know and I'll re-post a more detailed description of how to do the custom pieces.
So, there are multiple ways to beat the bug if you just go looking for the flyswatter (it's usually hanging on the nail by the refrigerator).

See ya!

Jim
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#8971
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
Hey all,

Once more, in case it is lost in the details, I would like to reiterate that I am looking forward to a Sci-Fi furnishing set. I think it is forthcoming pretty soon, by DF standards anyhow. I think it will be sooner then later.

Will it be the magic bullet for DF Sci-Fi... now that is the question.

Either way, I think Rabidfox and I agree more then we disagree.

And Rabidfox, I still really think people should be happy with what DF has done.... Most of all the Stefan and Jeff!

As for you point about the fantasy sets, I will concede it, though a repackaged set and new doors are not exactly earth shattering. But, I will concede that DF has brought out more fantasy stuff then I stated to.

As for you anecdotal vs. scientific gathering of information... Well, I am not going to impune your character by disagreeing with you. I am willing to go on record to say that their is a high probability that you are right.

I hope you can see how little I actually disagree with you... I tried to make it very clear in my previous post that I am on your side up. We are just having a friendly discussion about the finer points of some issues.

And Rabidfox, I not only ended my message civilly, but I was trying to be civil throughout it. I hope when you picture these words you see someone smiling and cheerful, merely speculating on a company that I have no control over...much like I talk about baseball trades. I mean, c'mon, it is just a hobby! An addictive wallet draining hobby, but a hobby just the same.

And JKratzer, you said nothing offensive in your post, no worries mate.

Off to WoW land
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Robert
 
#8972
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
Hey Robert!

Want Narrow Passages; Yeah, You and Half the Known MM Gaming Universe!

Memo to Jeff: Next Repeater Run, include Narrow Passages - and get Stefan to work on SF Narrows! (Right after the furniture Gamma).

See ya!


Jim
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#8973
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
Just an aside, something I was thinking:

I find the whole "anecdotal v. scientific" debate quite interesting. I would be curious to hear what people think is required for any evidence provided on these forums, in any debate, to qualify as anything other than purely anecdotal.

Personally, I don't see "anecdotal" as a pejorative term. It simply means that evidence is not scientific, and frequently, that is necessary. Not everything is science, and not everything admits of scientific accuracy. You can't provide anything beyond anecdotal evidence that someone loves you, you can't provide anything but anecdotal evidence that a work of art is any good, you can't provide anything but anecodtal evidence about a great many things. Scientific evidence is a rare bird.

RF, I have no problem with the claims you've made here, and I trust your knowledge of the industry and your analysis. You've shown many times that you know what you are talking about. But I see why someone just tuning in could see you as providing anecdotal evidence. I think the reason your posts can be read by someone as providing only anecdotal evidence would be something like the following:

1. Single source -- any time a single poster offers their experience, it can seem more anecdotal than if multiple posters indicate similar experiences. Even if you are talking about conversations with many people, it is tempting to brand anything reported by a single member of the forum as anecdotal.

Expertise here could be seen as irrelevant. Experts are wrong sometimes -- economists, historians, even physicists and engineers. If an expert says something, it is still anecdotal until other conditions are met -- including the agreement of other experts, or the citing of evidence beyond the status of the speaker.

2. Anonymity -- any time someone posts a reference that fails to provide names, it can seem anecdotal. If someone says "I spoke to many people" it doesn't indicate what it would if someone posted "I spoke to X from store Y, and Z from store B," etc.
Of course, there are very good reasons to keep things anonymous. But the consequence is the same -- if you can't list exactly who said exactly what, it can sound anecdotal.

To take an example from the past: how many retailers were angry that DF went to direct-sales-only? Well, first, we'd have to tally up every retailer in the country and get an opinion. Until we do that, all evidence is anecdotal, I would think. If you speak to 50 retailers, your evidence is solid and convincing -- but still anecdotal. Of course, with information about the share of the market represented by those retailers, etc, then things change. But it's still anecdotal when we don't know anything about to whom you are speaking.


3. Statistical context -- No matter how many people one speaks to, it seems like any study, to approach scientific accuracy, would have to include information about what these people represent. How large are their stores? What percentage of the market do they reach? And so on. Without that sort of information, it's tough to gauge the accuracy of a conclusion.

4. Speculation -- Since this debate is taking place about what people WILL do, not what they HAVE done, it invokes a whole new set of factors. Anyone who says "I would totally do X if Y were to happen" is not providing the sort of information that lends itself to scientific accuracy. For that to happen, we'd have to study patterns of what people HAVE done, and then extrapolate future courses of action from that. Their own personal testimony is, frankly, likely to be a factor of lesser significance.

To use the recent debate as an example -- what if the SF furnishings come out, and everyone hates them? Unlikely, I know. But -- some people said they weren't crazy about the console in Beta. And I know at the HA forums some people objected to the generic style of the SF design DF uses. And some people prefer steampunk or cyberjunk to the current design. As many people have posted, there are LOTS of ways to do SF, maybe more than with fantasy. So if DF comes out with furnishings, it's entirely possible that many people who have said "I would only buy if DF puts out furnishings" would still NOT buy.

In fact, to say that DF needs to "show that it really supports the SF line" or anything worded that vaguely invites problems -- it makes sense on the surface, and it is easy to agree with. But DF could do all sorts of specific things, and still be told by some non-customers "Well, that's not what I call really supporting the line!" This way, the conclusion can never be proven false -- no matter what happens, there's no circumstance in which the claim "Person X will do Y if Z happens" is true, because we can constantly reinterpret Z. According to people like Popper (and he has his critics), claims need to be falsifiable to count as science. If the claim can always be interpreted to be correct, because its wording is open to interpretation, it isn't science. Science would be "I would buy if DF puts out any furnishing set at all, no matter what." Then, you are right if you buy, and wrong if you don't, no excuses.


Anyway, this is just idle speculation on my part about what constitutes a scientific study of something like this. It's not meant as an insult to anyone or even as an indication that anyone's conclusions are wrong. I just am curious about what something would have to look like to count as more-than-anecdotal on a forum like this.

L
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#8974
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
In all my areas of study and in my work experience, "anecdotal" is used as a critical adjective to demean (often unjustly) someone's work or to point out information gathering that was done without true measure.
In other words, the data is worthless.
It is also frequently used as a criticism of work done that a person does not agree with, but does not want to take the actual effort in time, money and "pavement pounding" to actually disprove.

Meanwhile, when using a measure that has been used multiple times that appears to predict buying behavior, the data from that cannot be demeaned accurately in such a fashion.
That is what I did.
That is why I reacted in the fashion I did.

Your factor parameters L are good ones:
Single Source
Anonymity
Statistical Content
Specualtion
Additionally, you explained them very well.

I could point out how so and found myself doing so for 20 minutes.
I then realized where I was typing at.
I erased it; too professing for a good number here.
Some here would just say, "There goes RF* again!" without actually reading the text so I thought I would just save everyone the time and DF the forum space and kill the full form.

Simply put L, you did a good job of explaining the situation and showing both sides for those who are really reading what you wrote.
I will stop there with that.

Back on subject.
Anyone have any more ideas for what we want for Sci-Fi furnishings?
www.dwarvenforge.com/dwarvenforums/viewtopic.php?id=994 is the thread I am posting them at.
I have received several messages so far and even a couple of messages promising lists, but I still have not yet received those lists.
I have been putting everything I have received on that one thread.
I hope everyone thinks the list is well rounded.
Please feel free to message me if you think anything is missing on it.
I will get it on there!
Please remember to not post directly to that thread.
We are trying to leave that thread uncluttered and purely just the list.

Everyone, enjoy your Master Maze!
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#8975
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
Wow!

Did we ever put a stake through this topic with our debate...heh....

So...

How about an ogre's den type piece for Sci-FI... a one shot set, such as the interior of a shuttle....
Celtchief
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Robert
 
#8976
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
One shot rooms should be way down the line Sci-Fi MM.
And I mean [b]WAY[/b] down!

The Sci-Fi Master Maze line needs viability long before luxury, and one-off speciality Sci-Fi rooms are definitely a luxury item.
What Sci-Fi Master Maze therefore needs is components -both furnishings and variety pieces, but especially furnishings!
Sci-Fi Master Maze needs to be able to lay out as well as Fantasy Master Maze can, but also have all the versatility that Ainsty's Base Camp, Cargo Hold, Downbelow, SF Floors, Starport 36 and Tech Tunnel v.4 lines have, but in just one line.
If Sci-Fi Master Maze can achieve this, then it should be able to corner the North American market for Sci-Fi interiors and additionally make serious inroads in the same market elsewhere on the globe.
After this, one-off speciality Sci-Fi rooms will then be asset to Dwarven Forge maintaining control of this market.
Before then, in my opinion, if does DF this, then they may very well be wasting considerable amounts of the limited Dwarven Forge resources.
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#8977
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
One shot rooms should be way down the line Sci-Fi MM.
And I mean [b]WAY[/b] down!

The Sci-Fi Master Maze line needs viability long before luxury, and one-off speciality Sci-Fi rooms are definitely a luxury item.
What Sci-Fi Master Maze therefore needs is components -both furnishings and variety pieces, but especially furnishings!
Sci-Fi Master Maze needs to be able to lay out as well as Fantasy Master Maze can, but also have all the versatility that Ainsty's Base Camp, Cargo Hold, Downbelow, SF Floors, Starport 36 and Tech Tunnel v.4 lines have, but in just one line.
If Sci-Fi Master Maze can achieve this, then it should be able to corner the North American market for Sci-Fi interiors and additionally make serious inroads in the same market elsewhere on the globe.
After this, one-off speciality Sci-Fi rooms will then be asset to Dwarven Forge maintaining control of this market.
Before then, in my opinion, if does DF this, then they may very well be wasting considerable amounts of the limited Dwarven Forge resources.

Sorry, Guys, but I gotta stand with RabidFox* on this one.

Jeff & Stefan MUST concentrate their resources on multi-purpose pieces in the Sci-Fi line; if DF starts branching out to "one-off" or "one-shot" rooms, we can kiss DF good-BYE!
RIGHT NOW is the make-or-break period for Dwarven Forge; no, Jeff, stop cringing, because you have as much as admitted it, right here in the forums. If DF doesn't show significant profit THIS YEAR, 2006, then Jeff has NO margin to build on in 2007, and the company WILL go down. Bills MUST be paid, payroll and government obligations must be met - on-time! - and investment capital must be built up from SOMEWHERE. I know Jeff and Stefan really want to game, but when running what is now a multimillion-dollar business (we hope!), games take a back seat. Hey, Lori and Mari DO like to eat, occasionally. And so do all the other families in DF.
So, gamer customers all, what WE need to do, if we want DF to survive and continue making the high-quality stuff we've come to know and love, is to KEEP buying and supporting DF, and generate NEW customers for them. To do that, we have to believe in what they are making and selling; we need to let them know when something ISN'T going to fly, so they don't produce something that will be too small a demand. And we need to agree, somehow, on what we want them to make, at least until they can afford to do what is basically going to be custom work.
THAT is why I advocate customizing their stuff ourselves, to whatever extent we can, and however far we can do it. Jeff andStefan have already supported the idea, even to the point of customizing and SELLING DF pieces (see Bombanat's beautiful work on eBay); custom work for personal use certainly is not objectionable by DF.
Let's see some more MODELING here on the forums; share what we've done to customize DF products to fit EXACTLY what we want in a dungeon, StarBase, cavern, or wherever. Don't be afraid to chop up a DF piece to make it fit what YOU want in your personal fantasy world - hey, YOU, there in the back; that does NOT include x-rated statuettes. Well, okay, but keep the pics to yourself; this is a family-rated forum. Especially when she has tentacles, and he's purple!
Anyway, you guys get my drift; take the stock parts and make your own from them. Remember the old days of '55 Chevys and '32 Fords? What about the Millenium Falcon? She may not look like much, but she's the fastest hunk of junk in the galaxy!
Creativity DOES NOT STOP when you put down the pencil; it is an integral part of gaming, be it RPG, wargame, or whatever.

I've gotten off-topic here for the thread; I think we need Sci-Fi doors and furniture (but I repeat myself again!).

See ya!

Jim
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#8978
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
DF could keep both sides happy if they released themed rooms that are complete unto themselves but still made of components that could be changed around and added to different setups as desired.

Take the Ogre's Den as an example. Instead of one solid piece. it could be made of four corner pieces with wooden floors, three straight walls with wooden floors, two wooden floor pieces, a standalone fireplace, a bunk, and the rest of the pieces (doors and treasure) that are already in it. That way, we can still build the den as it currently stands, but we could also arrange the pieces and furnishings in other setups wherever we see fit.

In it's original form, I only bought one Ogre's Den, but if it was released as described above, I'd have minimum 3 or 4 (especially if it was the only way to get pieces with wooden floors.)

Carry that example over to sci-fi furnishings, we could see a Command Deck set that includes a command chair (freestanding or attached to a floor), some chairs, a viewscreen wall piece, an alternate door, some consoles, maybe some alternate floor or wall pieces, maybe a standalone turboloft piece, and you're good to go.

Luxury and viability, all in one.
Yukon Cornelius
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#8979
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
Rabidfox,

"One shot rooms should be way down the line Sci-Fi MM.
And I mean WAY down!"

You are of course, once again, right. I just, you know... wanted to say something. Once more I typed without thinking, and without thinking of the possible business problems of such a silly idea, merely wrote down something I thought would be cool.

Sorry again
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Robert
 
#8980
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
DF could keep both sides happy if they released themed rooms that are complete unto themselves but still made of components that could be changed around and added to different setups as desired.

Take the Ogre's Den as an example. Instead of one solid piece. it could be made of four corner pieces with wooden floors, three straight walls with wooden floors, two wooden floor pieces, a standalone fireplace, a bunk, and the rest of the pieces (doors and treasure) that are already in it. That way, we can still build the den as it currently stands, but we could also arrange the pieces and furnishings in other setups wherever we see fit.

In it's original form, I only bought one Ogre's Den, but if it was released as described above, I'd have minimum 3 or 4 (especially if it was the only way to get pieces with wooden floors.)

Carry that example over to sci-fi furnishings, we could see a Command Deck set that includes a command chair (freestanding or attached to a floor), some chairs, a viewscreen wall piece, an alternate door, some consoles, maybe some alternate floor or wall pieces, maybe a standalone turboloft piece, and you're good to go.

Luxury and viability, all in one.

YC's idea here is workable, but I do not think it may be viable until early 2008.
Sci-Fi Master Maze needs, at very least, a general furnishings set [b]AND[/b] an "Advanced Builder" style set first.
After these, then we can ask Dwarven Forge to do these modular rooms.
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#8981
New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be? 8 Years, 4 Months ago  
After these, then we can ask Dwarven Forge to do these modular rooms.
Actually, we can ASK for whatever we want, whenever we want. That's the beauty of this forum: no one limits the ideas and suggestions that are posted here. No one official, anyway. What we can EXPECT is up to Dwarven Forge, based on the suggestions of everyone and their own impressions of what will sell. One thing's guaranteed, though: if we don't ask for it, chances are good we won't get it.

So, since we're in an ASKING mood, here's what I would ask for in the way of Enhancements for Sci-Fi Master Maze:

A Command Deck set, made modular as described in my earlier post
A Cargo Bay Set, with doors, more consoles, a crane or something similar for moving cargo, some cargo pieces, etc...
A Cargo set: Pure furnishings, containers and consoles and such
An Engineering Set: Here I'm thinking of a BSG-esque machine shop, but it could look more Star Trekky or completely unlike anything we've seen in film.
A Barracks Furnishings Set: Bunks and lockers and such
A Medical Bay set: More furnishings and specialized wall pieces
A Wicked Additions set, which could be anything, but I'm hoping it would include stairs, rung ladders set into walls, catwalks with supports, some alternate doors, and some surprises straight from Stefan's brain
A "Tech Caverns" set. Cavern pieces with sci-fi highlights to tie the all the various Cavernous sets in with the sci-fi sets.
A "Downbelow" set (for lack of a better term.) A basic building set that gives the look of being in the bowels of a space station. Dark and gritty and dangerous.
A "Biomechanical" set. H.R. Giger in da hiz-ouse! Walls and floors inspired by the "Alien" movies, only not so inspired that they violate copyright.

So, yeah, those last two would probably represent entire new product lines. I'm well aware of that, and anyone who wants to chastize me about it can save their breath for cooling their pies. :)

Does anyone else have something they want to ask for? I know you do! Speak up and you might just get it!

:)
Yukon Cornelius
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