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What people are saying about Sci-Fi
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TOPIC: What people are saying about Sci-Fi
#8202
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Yeah -- I think that it's too soon to talk of SF going away completely. We're telling tales out of school, as the saying goes.

Certainly it doesn't seem to be selling as well as fantasy stuff, and people seem quick to leap to conclusions -- but nothing has been announced. Maybe if DoE does well enough, they'll consider carrying the SF line as an exclusive, limited series of sets. It won't take the gaming world by storm, but the faithful will get enough to satisfy their fix, and DF will be able to keep us happy, and make money.....

L
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"In every real man a child is hidden that wants to play."

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#8203
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
As anyone will tell you in the gaming market...things are a little dicey right now. We have not killed the Sci-Fi line, but we now have to be cautious with every set we put out. One bad one could be very bad for us.

Today's success with the Den of Evil set bodes well for the Sci-Fi line. The chances of some more sci-fi pieces coming out in early 2006 just doubled today. We will know more once Xmas draws near and we know more about the DOE sales.

Keep your fingers crossed. Believe me...I am probably the person who wants to see this sci-fi stuff out the most! I have ONE curved passage piece (prototype) to play with...and I need more! They look so sci-fi-ish!
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Jeff Martin

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Dwarven Forge, LLC
 
#8204
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
...

And would LOVE to see a freakin Table and chairs!
I am at the point where i am starting to make a few chairs of my own, just becuase i haven't found just a table and chairs any where. I have gotten a few table like things, but still need chairs... :cry:


Ebbles Paper minis have tables and chairs along with several other SF furnishings in their Ambient Elements Collection, but you must buy their Derelict II SF Walls and Floors Set ($14.99) or their Module: Core Primary Set ($9.99) to qualify for the free Ambient Elements Collection.

The Ambient Element Collection has the following items which do all work in scale in DF SF MM:
-1x1x1-inch cargo container and liquid storage drum
-Desk, chair, 1x1-inch table, 1x2-inch table, tall cabinet, and short cabinet
-Bunks, cots, and footlockers
-Floor and wall equipment storage lockers
-Wall toilet, sink/mirror unit, hand dryer unit, and shower stall
-Food station and waste processor
-Office ego wall and administrator wall portrait
-Personal workstations
Take a look at Ebbles WEB page to see them.

The First Light paper kits from WorldWorks Games also have tables and chairs in them which also can be used in DF SF MM.
Take a look at their WEB page to see the furnishings available.

Hope this helps GS.
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#8205
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Well, it looks like some readers just saw my pseudonym on the posting and let fly off the handle.
I wish some here would just leave the stormy emotions home and seriously look at my postings about the overall and specific situations that SF MM is finding itself in currently.
This is my first long reply in months and hopefully folks can read the points all the way through before just flying again.

Sorry for this being so long, but I am trying to hit all of the points.

First of all, any deriders here can ask anyone here who has read me seriously here on the DF forum, both before and after my temporary demise, I am a long-time and an enthusiastic SF gamer.
I bought into fantasy MM for both Warhammer Quest and Blood Bowl, but also to have some seriously nice 3D terrain to do my SF wargaming in because there was no quality 3D terrain for SF back in the late 90s.
I have been buying DF product since the Spring of 1998.
Additionally, I have been talking to Stefan for years about coming out with a SF MM.
I was overjoyed when it finally came out in 2004 at last.
Since then, I have bought into the DF SF MM sets very seriously.
I want very much DF SF MM to succeed because that is the genre I game in.
Additionally, I think that DF SF MM is the most rugged while best looking SF 3D terrain system out there for the money.
With that said, I do have some serious concerns about the public perception of DF SF MM with the starting point being no 2005 DF SF MM releases.

Thank you for your brief comment Jeff; I sincerely hope that SF MM will be alive for years to come, but the delays are causing doubts among many gamers I associate with in a serious chunk of these United States.
Yes, the gaming industry IS very dicey right now; actually Jeff, all discretionary spending markets are in the same boat.
The world economy is very unsettled, and how people spend discretionary income changes every three weeks or so from the business journals I have been reading.

Jeff, you say that you very much behind the SF MM set, but so did the FASA BattleTech developers say about the BattleTroops project.
BattleTroops was introduced in 1989 with much fanfare, just as DF SF MM was in 2004, but since BattleTroops did not catch fire in the first few months, as SF MM has not as has been explained to me, BattleTroops died over the next four years from benign neglect.
Granted, Chuck Crane and the folks at Ral Partha must share some of the blame with the FASA folks, but it was FASA's baby.
BattleTroops was not purposely killed, but it happened anyway.
The single expansion was not edited properly and came out years after the original game rather than a wiser nine months to a year interval.
The necessary figures were laughed off as unnecessary extras.
(They did figures for only two of five political bodies and only two of five platoon types, let alone any of the many other figures they should have done including jump troops and special forces)
And the list goes on.
Moreover, if BattleTroops had not been neglected, most people these days would have be asking "Warhammer what?" due to the BattleTech Universe's more attractive fictional setting and the sheer money-making potential that BattleTroops had.
That would have continued even with Mort Weisman closing FASA's doors in 2001.
Vor the Maelstrom has.
Will this all happen to SF MM?
I hope not.

Some people, who play mostly fantasy games, just do not seem to understand the issue of scale and fit that is essential to SF gaming.
It is very disruptive to a SF gamer, who has to operate in his games with exact measurements, sometimes down to the millimeter, to have furnishings not-to-scale with the terrain and/or their figures.
When you start combining many of the originally UK designs of furnishings such as Grendel and Ainsty with DF SF MM, you are then trying to play with mostly 30mm scale furnishings in a 25mm environment often with 28mm figures.
It all clashes - badly!
In this thread GS has mentioned this problem in his gaming.
Some of us still play true 25 and so our figures and the DF SF MM terrain work beautifully together; we just need furnishings that do so as well.

In response to my first posting, we had folks here seriously deriding me about gamers to want to buy it all from one company.
Well, those who started playing with Target and Sears examples showed they had no concept at all of what I was talking about.
The issue is that furnishings and terrain from the same company will do better because of common scale yes, but also because of common theme and coloration as well.
Look at some of the clashes that show up visually in the pics that some folks have posted here showing Grendel terrain with DF SF MM.
Look at all of the hoses, tubes, pipes and conduits shown on the Grendel pieces; they were all sculpted before fiber-optics, folks.
Meanwhile, DF SF MM was sculpted in a more modern future style.
On the other hand, you take some of the very well made paper SF furnishings and put them in DF SF MM, and the result is that they fit to scale and to theme with DF SF MM, but have some severe color clashes which are visually disruptive to game play and for viewers.
Ever try to game with a viewer constantly telling you they are bored?
Visually disruptive gaming environments lend to those "I want to get out of here" comments by viewers of the proceedings which then disrupt the game.
That is not conducive to future SF gaming sales for any company.
On the other hand, if you captivate the viewer along with the gamer with great looking terrain that all gestalts together as far as scale, theme and coloration, then you have a much more enjoyable gaming experience which can lead to some serious sales growth.

Then again, those same people earlier show ignorance of how furnishings are essential for SF gaming.
The only completely empty room in all of SF I can think of is an inactive holo-deck.
We are all going to get very bored, very quickly, playing in that sort of environment time after time with our DF SF MM.
Every SF setting given to us visually in the last 60+ years has a plethora of furnishings in it, from a personal setting such as a person's private quarters to quite public settings like the Zocalo on Babylon 5.
SF settings are cluttered or busy (your choice of desciber) with furnishings in almost every setting you see at every turn.
This is why so many SF gamers see the DF SF MM as simply too little effort on DF's part to be serious - there are no furnishings.

As far as celtchief's counter accusations, well again, we hear the "rubbish" comments and other such talk from those who do not want to hear the very real possibilities of what can happen if DF does not support its existing lines well enough.
celtchief, some of us have been gaming and in gaming a good while, and we have seen many good projects simply fade away through companies truly not trying hard enough to get a good product out and then to support it well enough.
Honestly, DF has made and can make some fantastic products, but they really need to start to seriously pound the pavement to get needed outside investors into their company.
YC is right, DF is small.
Their quality ideas and product are fast outstripping their resources.
Actually, money has been a problem for DF for quite a while from what Stefan has posted here in the past, but it is getting worse.
A serious infusion of cash is desperately needed to keep the flow going and the $90,000 GS estimates off of DOE pre-sales in chicken feed to the amount DF really needs which a couple of us have estimated to be between $5 million and $20 million to really get going with its potential.
The pace DF used to go at was aggravating-to-barely adequate back in the 90s, but is dangerously slow in this decade.
The American market is a lot faster paced these days, let alone adding in the International market's demands.
Any of you that doubt that, just go find out about it for yourselves.
Talk to store owners of stores you patronize, who have been open for longer than ten years; they will be able to tell you that the companies that have regular releases with few-to-no release delays are doing much better in the gaming market than companies that must go at the pace and method DF is.
If the DF problem is not cash flow but design flow, then there needs to be students taught by Stefan which are then brought on board as sculptors at DF.
GW has that system of creating their own sculptors and figure painters, and that is why they are able to keep a steady flow of releases going.
DF design flow needs to be brought up to pace with the other serious companies out there.
If it is both problems, then DF, would you please address both problems?

I have SF gamers here in the Rockies and the Western Prairie states dying on the vine from what they call little-to-no real SF support by DF.
I had five gaming groups, of 15+ gamers each in a different state, committed to buying into SF MM until Jeff posted that the SF MM additions had been delayed again, this time until next March which I then confirmed with him on this forum.
All five groups flushed at that point.
They looked at this comment & others from admin, DF's slow flow of SF pieces in the past year plus the ongoing SF MM sale & how long it has been going along with almost no encouraging comments from the DF admin about the future of SF MM and they decided to not buy in.
These gamers decided that not only SF MM is dying, but that DF is on the verge of death.
Granted the comment by GS about a potential $90,000 cash in-flow from the DOE pre-sales is positive for DF, but how so for SF MM?
Would not success in that category necessitate more releases and support in that category, not others?
That is where the money is flowing heavily from, yes?

Anyway, four of the groups, in just the days after Jeff's announcement and then clarification, bought both First Light sets from Worldworks with the last group talking about doing so.
Additionally, two of the groups also bought Worldworks' version of both Fantasy and Cavern MM.
This reversal represents a serious potential loss of sales for DF amounting into what would have been thousands of dollars.
How is that a positive thing for DF?

A last point folks is a question to start, "How many stores do you buy at that are not carrying DF product now and in the future?"
This continuing DF sale of SF MM and some other pieces of MM by DF is consistently undercutting store sales and is building mistrust between the stores and DF.
I know several store owners I deal with that have no intention of buying DF product again because of DF's willingness to retail product direct to gamers consistently under the wholesale price that stores pay, let alone sell at.
We have all at least read if not seen the discounting of SF sets at cons down to a low price of six SF sets for $100.
A store cannot buy from their distributor at that price so why carry DF product when DF is going to undercut them, not just on a special occassion or two a year, but for a solid six months at a time.
How many of you have actually bought more DF product at your LGS in the last year than you have from DF direct and how much of that was discounted no more than 25%?
More discounted than that, the store is not really making any money on the transaction after overhead so, "Why carry the product?" is a refrain I have heard over and over from gaming retailers.
Retail confidence in DF is sagging severely and needs to be rebuilt by DF.

Something has to be done DF; gamers, especially the SF gamers I know, are tired of hearing "Later, later" and waiting for nearly nothing, as I have been told time after time, to arrive.
Personally, I really enjoy the DF product I own, but I can see their view that the SF MM pace must needs be picked up seriously.
PLEASE DO SO DF!!
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#8206
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
First off -- I don't think there's any need to get so defensive, RF. I think you've made some great points and you've been a great participant in these reflections, and I haven't seen anyone attack you personally. (The "rubbish" remark struck me as more directed at the person I cited in my original post -- people gossiping about the company going out of business and the line failing etc.)

Second -- I think that your points make sense, but there are a few issues that don't seem quite resolved by them.

1. About SF gamers and absolute proper scale -- well, that may be true. Certainly there are just so many MORE people who play fantasy games that it makes sense that the smaller number involves fewer "casual" "beer n pretzels" gamers. But Wizkids has Mechwarrior now, and WOTC has SW, and then Starship Troopers came out -- I'd say those three games already bring in many casual, young SF gamers who aren't quite so exacting in their choice of terrain etc. It's neither here nor there in the end, but I certainly think it's possible that some SF gamers are less .. . exacting.

(Besides, RF, look at your pool of data -- you strike me as the kind of guy who tends to game with people who are precise about things like scale and consistency -- if I lived near you, and didn't game that way, I doubt I'd be at your table, you know? not that this proves anything, but it struck me all the same. I see all the casual SF gamers within 100 miles of you too afraid to "out" themselves....)

2. As for the rest -- I think the strongest point is about investors. The fact is, DF is a very small company with very real capital issues. That means they could not put out a lot of SF at once without risking the whole company -- and even if it did well, it would mean no fantasy for over a year. It means that they can't release things very quickly. If that means the sets are doomed, then it means they are doomed. But maybe the online-only limited-edition approach will leave something in the end after all. But there's no way they could have met the demands of some of these gamers without REALLY altering the structure of the company.

3. I'm also a little curious -- since you list two points that move in slightly different directions, which do you consider more crucial? On the one hand, you say that the gaming market is different now than it was 10 years ago, which of course it is. That implies that the fantasy line, if it began today, would have struggled just as much. It only doesn't because there is a backlog of available product to extend support to each new addition.

But you also point out that SF gamers are a different breed than fantasy gamers, and they simply demand things that fantasy gamers don't (or at least, don't demand as much). That implies that the SF line was always going to struggle more than the fantasy line, even 10 years ago when the market was flush.

I'm just curious -- which do you think was more important this time?

L
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"In every real man a child is hidden that wants to play."

-- F. Nietzsche
 
#8207
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
As anyone will tell you in the gaming market...things are a little dicey right now. We have not killed the Sci-Fi line, but we now have to be cautious with every set we put out. One bad one could be very bad for us.

Today's success with the Den of Evil set bodes well for the Sci-Fi line. The chances of some more sci-fi pieces coming out in early 2006 just doubled today. We will know more once Xmas draws near and we know more about the DOE sales.

Keep your fingers crossed. Believe me...I am probably the person who wants to see this sci-fi stuff out the most! I have ONE curved passage piece (prototype) to play with...and I need more! They look so sci-fi-ish!


This is actually very happy news to me.

The curved passage is something i have been itching to get my hands on... while i can't say i am happy waiting, I am glad that at least thought is being put into maybe a change of business to allow for easier investment into areas, if the presales of DoE pay for themselves i hope (and can totally expect a smaller amount with Sci-Fi becuase it is a smaller market) that something similar can happen to produce more Sci-fi.

Well heres to waiting
Ghenghis Ska
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
Classes of the Old Republic
Some RPG and mini stats including the Exodus and AAT (along with good source of a Mini scale version of the AAT).
 
#8208
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Rabid Fox,

It's cool, for me, personally, the anology makes sense about target and sears. For me, and for many gamers on this board, judging from the eclectic set ups, I don't think most gamers are as serious. You can say I don't know what I am talking about, but I really was just stating my opinion. I did not mean it as an attack on you.

As for my comments being written just because of your screenname, I'm sorry you feel that way, I felt I was just participating in the discussion. I'm really sorry to make you upset. I don't like conflict, even now I'm kind of upset with myself and shaking a bit that you took things the wrong way. I may be an ignorant idiot when it comes to gaming, and maybe I deserved to be cut down like that for expressing my opinion, but sometimes I feel like I have something to contribute.
Maybe DF will be going out of business someday, but I just wanted to bring up counter points to what you said. Once more, sorry about coming on to strong. I really went out of my way to try to post something worthy of discussion.

As for my comment of Rubbish, I apoligize, I did not mean to offend. I take it back.

Humbly

Robert
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Robert
 
#8209
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Sorry celtchief about my reaction to you.
BTW, please always contribute celtchief, okay?

As some here can testify, there was a poster here, who started off relatively mild and then became incredibly vicious in his treatment of me and my postings.
All he had to see was my pseudonym and there was a vicious attack of me forthcoming almost instantly no matter what I posted about and how.
The irony was that I was the one who got in trouble with some here including the moderator for simply defending myself from him.
Sometimes, even on the WEB, the perp gets away.

So celtchief, let me apologize here to you for my counterattack of what was in actuality just an opinion rather than the personal attack that one poster got me into the habit of defending myself from.
The rubbish word probably got me going in that direction and then the Target/Sears comparison which seemed to indicate that you, at best, did not understand or at worse, refused to understand, gave me the catalysts to go the way I did.
Sorry.

As far as the analogy making sense to you, let me ask, "Do you SF wargame or what?"

Let me also go to your retail analogy.
If I like the quality of Martha Stewart domestic products, I will NOT shop at Wal-Mart, Target or Sears. I will shop only for domestic items at K-Mart. In addition, the colors and styles will only truly merge into a pleasing gestalt and not clash if I continue to buy from the same domestics line. If I do buy some towels from Target or Wal-Mart to go with my Martha ones, I will notice the very first time they are together that there is a problem - color hue. The colors will be just slightly different at best and will clash with each other with their subtle differences. Additionally, the weave and the warp of the towels will be different because of differing criterion placed by their makers.

As far as terrain, I have seen both the good and bad effects of mixing terrain from different companies with their differing requirements all along their trails of product creation.
The best results always come from product that is made by only one manufacturer.

Sorry again for taking you wrong.
I hope to read you soon on the forum.
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#8210
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Rabid Fox
Thank you, I appreciate your mea culpa,

My only gaming experience with sci fi is the Star Wars minis and the Star Trek RPG. I am definately more of a Chainmail/DnD minis/RPG/ and I just picked up warhammer kind of guy. I do like painting my mini's and scenery though, and I just got my first batch of Star Trek Mini's to paint.

I understand your post regarding Martha Stewart, but for me, it does not matter if the color is slightly off. For me, the anology holds true. I can understand that other gamers may be more intense about their product, but not me. I have no problem if the scale is a bit off, or the coloring... for me it's better then nothing, which is what I would have otherwise. When we first started doing Trek we used Star Wars mini's since it was ever so slightly closer to trek then the fantasy stuff.

I still think DF is doing what they can the best they can. I think it is premature to talk about them going out of business, they do keep putting out product and such. Of course, I also could not fathom the cancelling of Greg the Bunny because I liked it, so maybe I am blind to market concerns and such, but a world without DF seems inconceivable to me!

And when I said the talk of neglect and such was rubbish, I really meant it in a way that was directed in showing my support to DF and my faith in their continued success then towards any individual.

Thanks again
Robert
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Robert
 
#8211
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
First off -- I don't think there's any need to get so defensive, RF. I think you've made some great points and you've been a great participant in these reflections, and I haven't seen anyone attack you personally. (The "rubbish" remark struck me as more directed at the person I cited in my original post -- people gossiping about the company going out of business and the line failing etc.)

You have not ever seen someone ever attack me here personally L?
There was a certain someone we all had a bit of time with that seem to make it his mission in life to flame me as often as I posted on anything, if you do not recall.
His constant attacks, I must admit, have made me sensitive about what can possibly be construed as self-aggrandizing attacks on myself.
Let me admit that I took celtchief wrong and we will move on, yes?

Second -- I think that your points make sense, but there are a few issues that don't seem quite resolved by them.

No problem - let's look

1. About SF gamers and absolute proper scale -- well, that may be true. Certainly there are just so many MORE people who play fantasy games that it makes sense that the smaller number involves fewer "casual" "beer n pretzels" gamers. But Wizkids has Mechwarrior now, and WOTC has SW, and then Starship Troopers came out -- I'd say those three games already bring in many casual, young SF gamers who aren't quite so exacting in their choice of terrain etc. It's neither here nor there in the end, but I certainly think it's possible that some SF gamers are less .. . exacting.

Are there really that many more people in your estimation L that play fantasy games than SF ones?
I know there are more people that play historicals than Fantasy and SF combined, but I do not see there being more Fantasy players than SF.
I see that here on this forum though & that might be where you get that idea, and that is only because Fantasy MM has a six year head start on SF MM.
Most gamers I see at stores and cons play more technology-based games than magic-ones.

The problem with your argument L is that you are pointing at only the least complicated of the SF games out there.
Warhammer 40K will join these games more closely as it moves into its fourth edition as GW dummifies the rules further.
To support your contention L, you are skipping games like "Classic" BattleTech, Vor, Stargrunt II, etc. to name only a few of the mid-level games as far as complexity that have much more thorough rules and scale factors to make your point.
Even with the games you mention, I know gamers who play them that are still exacting in their standards when it comes to terrain.
The pleasing gestalt as I call it or the "Awe Factor" as I have GW terrain specialists mention, is still highly important in keeping a good gaming environment.

L when you mention ... "casual" "beer n pretzels" gamers., are you speaking of all wargamers or just SF ones?

(Besides, RF, look at your pool of data -- you strike me as the kind of guy who tends to game with people who are precise about things like scale and consistency -- if I lived near you, and didn't game that way, I doubt I'd be at your table, you know? not that this proves anything, but it struck me all the same. I see all the casual SF gamers within 100 miles of you too afraid to "out" themselves....)

No L, I do not just show up at the LGS and play pick up games.
On the other hand, I am known for exacting standards when it come to figure painting and terrain making, but that does not result in fear L, but hours of demos and explanations I have done for the various stores I patronize.

As far as SF gamers, we (meaning the group of players I am a part of) recruit in the areas I play from the gaming "masses" that have promising players who have the spirit we seek or as Grieg and Centauri on The Last Starfighter refer to as the Gift.
We look for gamers that have skills in terrain making and figure painting; they do not have to be masters - just promising.
We also look for gamers that do not get a blank look when the following 15 names are mentioned: Jomini, Musashi, von Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Hart, Patton, Mao, Luttwak, Liu, Guderian, Zhuge, Summers, Pilcher, de Vauban and Ssu Ma.
Additionally, what is just downright confusing to some gamers who want to join our group is that we require the ability to write intelligently about what you did in a game you just played; in other words an AAR that is actually informative.
We have the connections to be on playtest groups and part of the reason we have been able to be playtesters is that we can write reports to the designers that actually help them make decisions rather than just waste their time.
Most of our group is current and former military folks with a good splash of quality civilian specialists mixed in.
The average age of the group in probably right around 40 with the eldest member being 82 and the youngest being 16.
Actually, there are only four juvenials in the group and all the rest have at least a dash of college if not advanced degrees.
So no L, ours is not your average gaming group, but we associate with many other gaming groups in the nine states we are all in so we still interact with the average gamer the companies are selling to which is caucasian, male and about 14yo.

2. As for the rest -- I think the strongest point is about investors. The fact is, DF is a very small company with very real capital issues. That means they could not put out a lot of SF at once without risking the whole company -- and even if it did well, it would mean no fantasy for over a year. It means that they can't release things very quickly. If that means the sets are doomed, then it means they are doomed. But maybe the online-only limited-edition approach will leave something in the end after all. But there's no way they could have met the demands of some of these gamers without REALLY altering the structure of the company.

The problem is that even the semi-casual gamers I know that I have been working on to buy MM items do not feel the company is a viable company because they do not release items with any sort of regularity.
This "Feast or Famine" release style cannot be helping DF at all because nearly every gamer I speak with hates it.
DF needs to get the capital together to make releases a steady process rather than the jackrabbit start and stop business they currently are going at.

L, the on-line business is only good if DF plans to leave the physical retail marketplace.
It seems like every time I make my "rounds", there is another game shoppe owner claiming they are not going to carry DF product again.
They are all tired of DF underselling them by going direct with what are called "ridiculous" discount sales.
I cannot think the game shoppe owners in the Rockies and the Western Prairie are all that different from the ones on the coasts L.

3. I'm also a little curious -- since you list two points that move in slightly different directions, which do you consider more crucial? On the one hand, you say that the gaming market is different now than it was 10 years ago, which of course it is. That implies that the fantasy line, if it began today, would have struggled just as much. It only doesn't because there is a backlog of available product to extend support to each new addition.

If DF started out today they way they did in the 90s, they would NOT survive.
The market, as you have agreed, has changed.
Product is expected to come out more steadily and at a higher quality than it did in the 90s.
DF has never had the quality problem, but, other than six months of last year with five releases I recall, they have always had the steadily problem.
Is it a cash flow, design flow or both problem, I do not know?
Whatever the problem actually is, it needs to be resolved soon because gamers, especially SF ones, are slipping through the cracks as the box is closing way too slow to retain them.

But you also point out that SF gamers are a different breed than fantasy gamers, and they simply demand things that fantasy gamers don't (or at least, don't demand as much). That implies that the SF line was always going to struggle more than the fantasy line, even 10 years ago when the market was flush.

I'm just curious -- which do you think was more important this time?

L


There will always be a struggle in selling to the SF market if the company going in refuses to recognize the variance in that market from the Fantasy one.
You can build a few traps and such for the fantasy folks and keep them happy meanwhile you must come out with furnishings and lots of them to be successful in the SF market.
Plain walls and floors seem to work smoother with the fantasy gamer than with the SF gamer.
SF interiors terrain without furnishings indicates a lack of commitment to the SF market and that does not seem to be a method of success succeeding.

What I think is most important right now is for DF to get on a steady production schedule with no more cacellations or delays for the next five years at least and that means someone from DF needs to pound the pavement and get some steady financial resources.
Maybe the alleged $90,000+ coming from DOE pre-orders will be what is needed to show a financial party that DF is a good investment.

I also would like them to be a good bit more steady with there production and release of SF MM L.

Did I get to everything you pointed out L?
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#8212
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Rabid Fox
Thank you, I appreciate your mea culpa,


Your welcome.
I just appreciate that you are not behaving like someone else did a little while back.

...

I still think DF is doing what they can the best they can. I think it is premature to talk about them going out of business, they do keep putting out product and such. Of course, I also could not fathom the cancelling of Greg the Bunny because I liked it, so maybe I am blind to market concerns and such, but a world without DF seems inconceivable to me!

And when I said the talk of neglect and such was rubbish, I really meant it in a way that was directed in showing my support to DF and my faith in their continued success then towards any individual.

Thanks again
Robert


I am just concerned that DF may not be there another seven years down the line if they continue in the way they have the seven years they have been around.
The company needs to be a lot more steady in its releases; the market is demanding that.
I honestly feel that part of that is addressing the great need for SF furnishings that SF gamers use in almost every interior battle.
Otherwise, as I have seen and reported, the SF gamers will start to go elsewhere.
And, if not dealt with, hopefully, that will not build into a serious drain also of other types of gamers.
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#8213
What people are saying about Sci-Fi 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
As anyone will tell you in the gaming market...things are a little dicey right now. We have not killed the Sci-Fi line, but we now have to be cautious with every set we put out. One bad one could be very bad for us.

Today's success with the Den of Evil set bodes well for the Sci-Fi line. The chances of some more sci-fi pieces coming out in early 2006 just doubled today. We will know more once Xmas draws near and we know more about the DOE sales.

Keep your fingers crossed. Believe me...I am probably the person who wants to see this sci-fi stuff out the most! I have ONE curved passage piece (prototype) to play with...and I need more! They look so sci-fi-ish!


This is actually very happy news to me.

The curved passage is something i have been itching to get my hands on... while i can't say i am happy waiting, I am glad that at least thought is being put into maybe a change of business to allow for easier investment into areas, if the presales of DoE pay for themselves i hope (and can totally expect a smaller amount with Sci-Fi becuase it is a smaller market) that something similar can happen to produce more Sci-fi.

Well heres to waiting


I am waiting along with you GS.
I just hope they will release an interior furnishings set of some quality along with the Beta set they showed before next March.
Additionally, I hope they include a normal door along with the force field door in the Beta set for those of us that have absolutely no use for force fields.
Replacing that funky short passage piece they were thinking about including with something more useful like just about any style of piece from the ABS set re-formatted for SF might be nice as well.
Get rid of the hokey console DF!
DF, try to make any furnishings look like SF rather than Steampunk!
RabidFox*
Ogre
Posts: 962
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Western U.S.A.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
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