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TOPIC: Sci-Fi Terrain
#6388
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
Oh my god....

You people are the reason gamers get a bad name.

You didn't just get in a pissing contest over your C.V.'s did you? You did, ahhhhhhhhh!

Seriously folks, the Sci-Fi terrain is good stuff. Gaming is a huge business. Most gamers spend a lot of money and energy on their hobby. While typically this has been reserved for source material and armies, Dwarven Forge has a good product and it can find a good niche, if people buy it and if people create a buzz about it.

If you are of the personality disorder type who lives under a negative cloud because you are cranky that:

1.) You were a cash register jockey at a local game store that didn't appreciate you.
2.) You were a nobody support rep for a Huge gaming concern that never recognized your "talents."
3.) You picked up a paint brush...

then get some help and move on...

I recommend any game played with the really cool Dwarven Forge Sci-Fi terrain to help with your journey.

As for big layouts versus small. This line of reasoning is silly. Look to the automotive world for guidance here folks. People buy DuPont Registry even though they will never in their lifetimes but a two hundred thousand dollar sports car. People play sci-fi games even though they may never have a grand in sci fi terrain.

Use a little imagination. Instead of trying to push DF product onto serious gamers by quibbling about which layouts to espouse take the next logical step:

Start thinking about which layouts CLUBS or STORES could put together with a $5 per player terrain charge. The store/club wins by having destination terrain if you will, and the players win by leveraging their moolah toward what they could not possibly hope to purchase on their own.

That being said I've recently picked up ooddles and oodles of Sci-Fi terrain because I love Space Hulk, 40k, and I want to play SW minis. So the average gamer might just drop $500 on DF out of nowhere because he thinks it is cool.

MightyZug
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#6389
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
It's not a pissing match, Zug (at least not from my side.)

It is, however a difference of opinion, which is what discussion boards like this are all about.


So, moving on to Rabid's comments...

We're really not too far apart on our opinions here. You're saying that DF needs to showcase smaller sets to entice new customers. I'm all for that. I said as much in my previous posts.

But look at where you are. You're on a messageboard with a small number of users who are already hooked on Dwarven Forge. Sure, there's the occasional newbie with entry-level questions (which I encourage) but for the most part playing up the versatility of DF on this forum is preaching to the choir.

After all, there's no need to sell weed when you're already in the crackhouse. :)

Really, this whole discussion started because of your claim that large setups are "useless." This is simply not so, especially to the members of this board. On the contrary, large setups encourage discussion and help spread new ideas around. They're valuable to this community, and will continue regardless of the opinions you or I have on the matter.

As for this comment...

If we do our part to make it palatable, then more gamers will actually open their wallets and buy MM.
DF can go mainstream if we, the DF enthusiasts, make the effort and take the time.


...I couldn't agree more! If it were up to me, everyone who uses minis would be using DF with it (and what a wonderful thought that is!) But, if you're going to engourage new users, don't alienate the existing ones in the process.
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#6390
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
You said you work in marketing YC.
Marketing what?


I started out marketing insurance agency software (yeah, I know...I'm bored just typing it) and moved on to work for an internet firm that mainly did e-commerce consulting for major retail chains. Now I'm managing websites for a magazine publisher in the personal care industry.

You'd be surprised how little the core marketing concepts change from industry to industry:

Know your market.
Know what message you need to reach that market.
Live up to that message.

DF has made huge leaps in marketing in the past year. I don't think they've gotten near enough recognition for that.
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#6391
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
I never tried to get into a pissing match with anyone.

I do however take issue with people who think that thier way is the only way, and say i do certain things with out knowing anything about me. I just wish people would not knock other peoples choices and ways to do things. If you have an agenda to set forth with how you think it should be used, highlight it, and post pics and etc with that in mind, but don't tell others that they way they are using it is in any way wrong, becuase it is differnet than what you want it for, or what works for them is not right becuase it doesn't work for you.



This past Tuesday during my SWd20RPG game, i used the Sci-Fi sets for the Backdrop of the [Insert SW Corp name here, be it Czerka, Techno Union, Trade Fed] headquarters that the PC's were going to inflitrate to rescue some slaves.

Now in that set up, there was nothing massive about it, a total of 4 rooms (some of them shareing walls), and a few passages connecting them took up a relativly small foot print. But oddly becuase of the way they package the sets, and having no long wall bits, i had to do some fudging to get what i wanted, and it used a number of starter sets, more than i would have likes. I would love to have either single or 4 packs of items to buy for the Sci fi, like they have with the Fantasy line, namely some longer wall sections, both 4 inch and 6 inch would be ideal, but i would be happy with just 6 inch sections, becuase i can fake 4 inchs with two normal, but the 6 take way to much from a box, all of the just simple walls, not corners not angles from one starter. Heck even 4 doors, and 4 simple walls would have been great.I could have made a nicer set up, but the Players had fun, which is what counts.

And some longer passage bits, (comming in Beta i think) would have been handy but not needed. I did ok with what i had for passages used less than two sets, and since this was a building, i needed few passage bits, i needed more simple plain walls. Untill DF gets those out some how you need too many sets to build all sci fi rooms of a larger size, they are a bit limited in scope, if you only want to use the SF.
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
Classes of the Old Republic
Some RPG and mini stats including the Exodus and AAT (along with good source of a Mini scale version of the AAT).
 
#6392
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
You said you work in marketing YC.
Marketing what?


I started out marketing insurance agency software (yeah, I know...I'm bored just typing it) and moved on to work for an internet firm that mainly did e-commerce consulting for major retail chains. Now I'm managing websites for a magazine publisher in the personal care industry.

You'd be surprised how little the core marketing concepts change from industry to industry:

Know your market.
Know what message you need to reach that market.
Live up to that message.

DF has made huge leaps in marketing in the past year. I don't think they've gotten near enough recognition for that.


Your market principles are right on target.
Those are a serious part of the reason GW is not as successful as they could be.
While I was there and contacts on the inside still say it is so, GW didn't/doesn't or refuses to understand that you cannot market to the entire U.S.A. and/or Canada they way you do to a nation as small as the state of Nevada with less than a quarter of the U.S.A. & Canada's population.
Furthermore, the idea of a population that has access to an entertainment media that is so wide in scope and either free or relatively inexpensive compared to the situation in the UK is an idea that is nearly completely impossible for the UK brass to understand.
They expect to market product the same exact way in Los Angeles, Boston, New Orleans, Omaha, SLC and Rexburg, Idaho, despite horrendous differences in population density, cultural identity and available fluid capital.
What this results in is horrendous holes in market coverage for GW product and thereby huge financial opportunities completely missed.

I wish DF had effected huge leaps in marketing if not other areas YC this last 18 months or so.
I will admit that they have made some changes and went through another release flurry, but the true change needed most is not in marketing, but in finance YC.
DF is a company that has really cool ideas, but not the wherewithal to pursue them as they should.
That has given excuse to gamers with little patience and self-control like a few whiners here, who at this time will remain unnamed to avoid the start of another whinefest, to post ridiculous comments and wild accusations.
If DF could actually raise their financial stength to take their cool ideas to the extent they should have been able to go, then the DF experience would be absolutely fabulous.

That is not to say that Stefan and Jeff are not trying because they are.
It is saying that their great ideas unfortunately need a good bit of capital to put into reality for us which they do not have.
You read Stefan's comment a month ago, yes?
His father has had to repeatedly bail out DF from financial woes.
It would be great if DF could raise itself beyond such problems, but I am not sure they can.
I hope they will be able to continue to produce our great terrain, but I am afraid that someone or something will have to step in and help money-wise.
I just hope that who does step in to help will not change DF too much.
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#6393
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
...

This past Tuesday during my SWd20RPG game, i used the Sci-Fi sets for the Backdrop of the [Insert SW Corp name here, be it Czerka, Techno Union, Trade Fed] headquarters that the PC's were going to inflitrate to rescue some slaves.

Now in that set up, there was nothing massive about it, a total of 4 rooms (some of them shareing walls), and a few passages connecting them took up a relativly small foot print. But oddly becuase of the way they package the sets, and having no long wall bits, i had to do some fudging to get what i wanted, and it used a number of starter sets, more than i would have likes. I would love to have either single or 4 packs of items to buy for the Sci fi, like they have with the Fantasy line, namely some longer wall sections, both 4 inch and 6 inch would be ideal, but i would be happy with just 6 inch sections, becuase i can fake 4 inchs with two normal, but the 6 take way to much from a box, all of the just simple walls, not corners not angles from one starter. Heck even 4 doors, and 4 simple walls would have been great.I could have made a nicer set up, but the Players had fun, which is what counts.

And some longer passage bits, (comming in Beta i think) would have been handy but not needed. I did ok with what i had for passages used less than two sets, and since this was a building, i needed few passage bits, i needed more simple plain walls. Untill DF gets those out some how you need too many sets to build all sci fi rooms of a larger size, they are a bit limited in scope, if you only want to use the SF.


Where's the Pics?!?!
What is the estimated cost for the layout
We really need pics of economic layouts here to help further the MM experience off-line.
Thanks for the idea GS, but we need some visual back-up for it.
If all you can do is to use therigwin's mapping helps to do a layout pic for us, that would be a start to where the rest of us can make it, try it out and then take pics and post them if the layout works.
Hope to see your follow-up post soon GS.
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#6394
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
They are Still in it so i plan on snaging some shots on next tuesday, i was going to take some pics but i forgot my Digital camera, last week. I remembered after i got to work, but since i leave directly from work for the game i didn't get a chance to pick it up.
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
Classes of the Old Republic
Some RPG and mini stats including the Exodus and AAT (along with good source of a Mini scale version of the AAT).
 
#6395
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
They are Still in it so i plan on snaging some shots on next tuesday, i was going to take some pics but i forgot my Digital camera, last week. I remembered after i got to work, but since i leave directly from work for the game i didn't get a chance to pick it up.

That will be great GS.
I look forward to their posting.

I too have a digicam problem.
My wife, because of something I said two weeks ago, loaned the cam out to her mother, and it is presently on the Olympic Peninsula of Washington State.
Talk about me being concerned.
The Olympic Peninsula is the only rain forest in North America until you get down by the Yucatan Peninsula in Southern Mexico.
Lots of moisture and my mother-in-law is not the most mechanically minded person I know.
At least I know the camera is old and if she damages it, I may get a newer one come Christmas.
Come Christmas!?!
That is over seven months away.
Here's hoping that nothing has happened in the last six days or will happen in the next ten days to the camera.
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#6396
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
Here is the second attempt.
Probably not as good as the first reply, but computers can be computers.
Gotta luv 'em; gotta hate 'em.

Oh my god....

Can you please spare us the blasphemy MightyZug (MZ)?
Some here get a thrill off of talking like this, but others just find it offensive.

You people are the reason gamers get a bad name.

Because we are discussing marketing and what each of us feels to be the best way to market DF to the gaming community on the whole MZ?
I thought unthinking willfully malicious attacks on persons trying to tell the truth on this forum "are the reason gamers get a bad name." MZ.
Furthermore, I thought that the few gamers who lose their grip on reality and do frightful things to others in the world that get so much press "are the reason gamers get a bad name." MZ.
Moreover, I thought that gamers that never learned to control themselves or their emotions, who have crying fits or temper tanrums over the missed roll of the dice "are the reason gamers get a bad name." MZ.
These are especially so MZ when the parents, grandparents and other responsible adult figures in the lives of potential gamers see all this and then forbid their charges from gaming.
How many thousands of dollars is the gaming industry losing because of the truly bad examples of a few?

You didn't just get in a pissing contest over your C.V.'s did you? You did, ahhhhhhhhh!

So MZ, where is the breeding female that I and whomever else you are trying to censure with your broad brush are competing over.
Did you forget that a pissing contest is only done by males in order to win a breeding female?
I am happily married to a wonderful gal so I have no need to play in your contest; I do not know about GS or YC.
they can speak for themselves.
Maybe you need to go back to Merriam-Webster to figure out what this term really is, yes?

What are you trying to play with or mean with "C.V.'s"?
To me CV means combat value and I do not see how that relates here.

Seriously folks, the Sci-Fi terrain is good stuff. Gaming is a huge business. Most gamers spend a lot of money and energy on their hobby. While typically this has been reserved for source material and armies, Dwarven Forge has a good product and it can find a good niche, if people buy it and if people create a buzz about it.

You are right MZ that DF's SF terrain is good stuff.
We need a lot more pieces out before it will be really useful though.

Unfortunately MZ, you are wrong - gaming is not a huge business, at least not huge in either Merriam-Webster's definitions or in any business definition I am acquainted with.
Huge industries involve considerable more money.
I do not believe gaming overall generated $500 million dollars last year, maybe not even $250 million.
Huge is $1 billion+.
On must remember that the world's GNPs together approached $300 trillion dollars in 2004.

If you want hobbies that are huge, maybe you should look at model railroading.
My wife says you should look at scrapbooking.
If you want huge and games, you could only speak of computer, video and dedicated game machine games.
That is not what this site or this particular thread discussion is all about though, is it MZ?

Huge business MZ would be like Security Pacific Banking Corporation which is now part of the Bank of America.
Back in the mid-80s I worked at SPBC's Glendale Operations Center in California.
Compared to the gaming industry overall and what appears to be its largest member GW, this one banking operation center would crush the entire gaming industry without the help of the rest of the corp in multiple ways.

All of GW-US, -Canada, and -North America may employ 250-300 persons tops.
Each floor of that 15-story operations center employed more persons than that.
Each day the operations center had over a million dollars processed through it.
GW Worldwide may process $100 million tops in a year's time and no other gaming company or division worldwide makes that much money now that some of the old giants of the industry are gone.
The term "huge" just cannot be used in regards to the gaming industry MZ.

The focus of this entire discussion MZ is how to most effectively create a buzz about DF product in the gaming community overall.
The worse thing we all could do is let DF stay a niche market company.
It would prevent any significant growth for the company.
It must break out into the mainstream of Role-playing and Wargaming to make the serious money it needs to both survive and then flourish.

If you are of the personality disorder type who lives under a negative cloud because you are cranky that:

1.) You were a cash register jockey at a local game store that didn't appreciate you.
2.) You were a nobody support rep for a Huge gaming concern that never recognized your "talents."
3.) You picked up a paint brush...

then get some help and move on...

I recommend any game played with the really cool Dwarven Forge Sci-Fi terrain to help with your journey.


This section of your reply makes me wonder if you have bothered to actually read this thread that you started.

This list of my gaming-related experience was in direct answer to a question posted to me by YC back on the 11 April.
What were you thinking MZ that you turned it into some sick thinking comment about me bewailing my life.
Your response might be funny if IT was not so ridiculous and troubled MZ.

Please get over this "huge" thing with GW and the gaming industry overall MZ.
It is just not the adjective to use in this case.
Sizeable - maybe, but definitely not huge.
IBM is huge.
Microsoft is huge.
Bank of America is huge.
GW is small potatoes in the world and the rest of the gaming industry is too.

I do play several cool SF games with my SF and Cavern MM.
Sometimes I even use the original style of MM in those games even.
Then again, I also play one serious cool fantasy game with original MM too.

As for big layouts versus small. This line of reasoning is silly. Look to the automotive world for guidance here folks. People buy DuPont Registry even though they will never in their lifetimes but a two hundred thousand dollar sports car. People play sci-fi games even though they may never have a grand in sci fi terrain.

Again, you have no idea what we are talking businesswise about here MZ.
I am confused why you even stepped in.
What we were/are talking about trying to make efforts to increase DF's profits so that they can do more and you go galivanting off with no real reference to what we are talking about and make accusations.
Why?
I just do not understand.

Use a little imagination. Instead of trying to push DF product onto serious gamers by quibbling about which layouts to espouse take the next logical step:

Start thinking about which layouts CLUBS or STORES could put together with a $5 per player terrain charge. The store/club wins by having destination terrain if you will, and the players win by leveraging their moolah toward what they could not possibly hope to purchase on their own.


The idea here MZ is not to push DF on anyone MZ, but to entice the entire gaming community into being thrilled with MM without intimidating any within that body and to encourage initial and repeat purchases of DF product so as to generate the necessary capital for DF to survive and then thrive.
Again, it is marketing issues being discussed which you seem to be ignoring.

I have seen an attempt at your club idea in California and it failed miserably with the store dying within six months of opening.
The principle behind it is that the store has no responsibility in trying to improve its own sales - gamers do.
Somehow the gamers should not only support the store with purchases, but that they need to be directly supportive of in-store gaming too with no outlays by the store.
I honestly do not understand how this idea could come about once, let alone twice in my experience.

The quality game shoppe should invest a considerable sum into quality painted figures of the minis it carries, quality terrain for in-shoppe gaming including a compete set-up of MM, a complete set of MM to use to display that cabinet of quality painted figures and so forth.
The idea is that the shoppe needs to show off what it sells so that it can sell goodly sums of it.
This is a proven idea with at least a couple decades of proof behind it.

Even if we could get all of the game shoppes to have a proper supply of MM on hand for both uses, that still would not ensure DF's survival MZ.
What we need is for gamers to individually purchase collections of MM so as to do this.
The idea is to encourage ~$200 initial purchases of an actual working amount of MM and then encourage these gamers to buy more MM later in order to expand on what they have already acquired.
Your idea just does not provide for sufficient cash flow to ensure DF's survival let alone for DF to flourish.

The only club I have seen that even comes close to your idea did not start as a club and that is IO's group.
He actually collected a good bit of his stuff while on tour with a band.
He has never informed us, that I know of, how everyone else in his group collected their stuff or even how many "they" are.
This "club" started off as a group of friends which then joined their private collections together.
IO has never said anything about having any sort of dues, so I do not think it may actually come close to your idea here.

That being said I've recently picked up ooddles and oodles of Sci-Fi terrain because I love Space Hulk, 40k, and I want to play SW minis. So the average gamer might just drop $500 on DF out of nowhere because he thinks it is cool.

MightyZug


Do you really think you are an average gamer MZ?
Do I read you right that you just dropped $500 on MM?
If yes, well, let me welcome you to serious gaming then.
No average or casual gamer would drop that much at once on terrain.
They might be even hardpressed to drop that much at once on books and/or figures, let alone terrain MZ.
Why?
Because they are not serious gamers.
Only serious gamers do that sort of thing.

Well, that was not as well put as the first time MZ, but I hope it is adequate without causing another "holla".
Then again, with how "sensitive" some folks here claim to be, I am sure someone will complain about how "mean" I am being to you; it alwasy seems to happen.
Hopefully, you will be able to see the message rather than just being another wilting violet like several here on the Forum.
I do not know you, so I do not know; we will see.

Have a great day MZ.
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#6397
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
If DF could actually raise their financial stength to take their cool ideas to the extent they should have been able to go, then the DF experience would be absolutely fabulous.

That is not to say that Stefan and Jeff are not trying because they are.
It is saying that their great ideas unfortunately need a good bit of capital to put into reality for us which they do not have.
You read Stefan's comment a month ago, yes?
His father has had to repeatedly bail out DF from financial woes.
It would be great if DF could raise itself beyond such problems, but I am not sure they can.


That's a pretty dire prediction, but I see your point. The sci-fi sale (hopefully) will help get new customers into the mix, but I think they need to advertise it more in order to really get that effect.

Now, if they were to price the sci-fi stuff and maybe the fantasy starter at $25 during Gen Con, I have a feeling they'd dramatically increase their customer base and get the ready cash they need for some of these new releases.

Maybe that strategy could even become permanent. Assuming it wouldn't mean operating at a loss, maybe the Fantasy and Sci-Fi starter are always $30 or so for new customers buying online (or, if they can swing it, for ALL customers.) Give them a little taste and get them hooked. That would translate to better sales of things like the cavern and wicked additions sets, because we all know that, to paraphrase Hunter S. Thompson, once you get started on a serious Dwarven Forge collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.
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#6398
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
RF --

"CV," I can only assume in this context, stands for "Curriculum Vitae." It's an academician term for a resume -- I seem to recall hearing someone once imply that it was pretentious, but that's like calling a chef pretentious for saying "double boiler" instead of "pot." It's the jargon of an industry, and within that context it's a perfectly acceptable term. Some people in academia just get used to using the phrase in place of "resume."

I'm surprised you didn't recognize it, I thought you were a professor. Or do you not teach at the college level?

L
oh, and while I understand your irritation, I would have said "pissing match" is a fine phrase to extend metaphorically to other contexts -- I just wouldn't have used it to describe this thread. But like "knee-jerk reaction" and "alpha male rivalry" and similar phrases, it doesn't strike me as something that becomes unintelligible when taken out of its originating context.
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#6399
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 5 Months ago  
RF --

"CV," I can only assume in this context, stands for "Curriculum Vitae." It's an academician term for a resume -- I seem to recall hearing someone once imply that it was pretentious, but that's like calling a chef pretentious for saying "double boiler" instead of "pot." It's the jargon of an industry, and within that context it's a perfectly acceptable term. Some people in academia just get used to using the phrase in place of "resume."

I'm surprised you didn't recognize it, I thought you were a professor. Or do you not teach at the college level?


I am now going, "Oh, DUH!!"
I did not even think of that definition of "CV" L.
Then again, I was not doing something for work, but in gaming.
I was too narrow focused to even think of that possible definition.
I am still going "DUH!!"
On the other hand, I did react to YC properly when asked for credentia, but that was an outright asked question.
"Well, DUH!!"
Can I say it a few more times?
I feel like an idiot not picking up on MZ's use of his abbreviation.
Actually, now that I think about it, I cannot think of a time that anyone I have dealt with professionally has shortened it to "CV" - the common shortening is just "Vitae" like "May I see your vitae?"
I still feel like, "Well, DUH!!", though.

L
oh, and while I understand your irritation, I would have said "pissing match" is a fine phrase to extend metaphorically to other contexts -- I just wouldn't have used it to describe this thread. But like "knee-jerk reaction" and "alpha male rivalry" and similar phrases, it doesn't strike me as something that becomes unintelligible when taken out of its originating context.


They are becoming unintelligible because of uses that are not quite true to the metaphor.
This problem used to be called "misplaced metaphors" years ago in classes.
I think some instructors at all levels have simply given up teaching good English, and the language is beginning to suffer.
Just look at how many rules, especially punctuation and capitalization, the postings on this forum break each week, and I am not speaking of typos and the like.
It is very sad.

I and some colleagues are putting a paper and a textbook together about the overuse of some terms in trying to explain human behavior when the term is not truly accurate to describe the actual human behavior, especially the over- and inaccurate use of biological terms.
American English is becoming way too loose in the liberties the rising generation is taking with it and it is starting to loose it relevance.
Other languages are going to overtake English's supremacy if people do not stop using the language incorrectly or inaccurately.
It has happened to Latin, German and other languages in the past and unless something is done soon, English will join these language has beens.
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