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TOPIC: Sci-Fi Terrain
#6375
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 7 Months ago  
I just want to strongly encourage DF to continue to produce the Sci-Fi line. If from a business perpective you can keep the product out there, there is a lot of talk about opening up tournament Space Hulk using your product. The scenarios would be based on your product so a player at whateverCon could compare his massacre to some guy braggin' about how he did at whereverFest.

Part of the problem right now is that with only Starter, Passage, and Alpha available the "entrance fee" to a playable game using your terrain is so high. By the 50% sale I really believe that DF will find it is building a core group of customers.

Sci-Fi needs some support. If the Beta release is on hold, use the existing pipeline from fantasy to at least release a single piece of some kind whatever it is...

Hang in there, you've got a great product it just takes time for the Space Hulk players to reorganize, and for the SW minis guys to realize what you are offering...
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#6376
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
I honestly think that is why the Sci-fi was really the only full set to get 50% off. It's not established yet like the Fantasy/Dungeon line is, the bump to get over in getting DF is the price. I don't mind paying $50 to get a set, but paying that to get two is a no brainer and the way to move the prodcut to get people to buy it and get enough to use in the massive crawls like we see from Places like Tom and others with the D&D/Fantasy.
L and I are the ones who have the most Sci (i think), and L is prolific in posting pics, but most of the set ups are small just becuase it was too expensive to get a lot at one time, i pretty much doubled my sets in the sale (finally got them last night, and the delays weren't all DFs fault, I HATE UPS), becuase i know thye are worth it and i could get twice as much for the same amount of out lay, the building of massive collections is what people need to do with DF and the sale i think allowed people to do it with the new set...

So maybe next week we will see some new pictures up by Me as i use this in my new SW campaing... or people using it for Space Hulk...
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
Classes of the Old Republic
Some RPG and mini stats including the Exodus and AAT (along with good source of a Mini scale version of the AAT).
 
#6377
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
I honestly think that is why the Sci-fi was really the only full set to get 50% off. It's not established yet like the Fantasy/Dungeon line is, the bump to get over in getting DF is the price. I don't mind paying $50 to get a set, but paying that to get two is a no brainer and the way to move the prodcut to get people to buy it and get enough to use in the massive crawls like we see from Places like Tom and others with the D&D/Fantasy.

GS, massive crawls are useless.
Almost no gamer will ever have the money and/or the inclination to get that much MM.
Tom of France and IO are abberations to this rule.

The best sell for MM, especially SF MM, is to show settings that a normal gamer could really use to play.
Themed set-ups made with only a few sets will get more money for DF than the huge crawl pics.
Huge crawl pics generally demoralize gamers and turn them up sour grapes.

L and I are the ones who have the most Sci (i think), and L is prolific in posting pics, but most of the set ups are small just becuase it was too expensive to get a lot at one time, i pretty much doubled my sets in the sale (finally got them last night, and the delays weren't all DFs fault, I HATE UPS), becuase i know thye are worth it and i could get twice as much for the same amount of out lay, the building of massive collections is what people need to do with DF and the sale i think allowed people to do it with the new set...

So maybe next week we will see some new pictures up by Me as i use this in my new SW campaing... or people using it for Space Hulk...


I added the bold for Ghengis Ska because this is a common complaint from him.
Meanwhile, my DF order came in today, a day earlier than UPS said it would.
Now, that is what I call GGRRREEEEAAAAATTTTTT SERVICE!!!
Actually, I have only ever had a problem once with UPS (back in 1993) and I have used their services a great deal.

Okay GS, you have 17 SF sets (7S, 6P, 4α) and I only have 12 (3S, 2P, 7α), so yes you do have more SF than I.
I do not know how many sets the L has.
Your ratio has a heavy Passage component while mine is heavy with Alphas and their large open-space pieces.
This difference shows our differing emphasis in how we play.
I play actual wargames (BattleTroops, Star Grunt II, etc.) with a good number of units of size while you play with a Space Hulk-style emphasis which is just a few figures being played with.
I do not see how you can have a cool SW campaign without having enough open-space for units to fight in.
Then again, if all you are playing with is a Jedi and just a few comrades against a Sith and just a few of his henchman, then you may be able to create something.
Theme is everything!

I plan to have pics of the DF piece setup I gave y'all a map of before by as early as Saturday.
As far as having pics with figures and everything in the set up, it will take a bit longer than that.
I have to get back some figures I loaned out for the idea I have in mind.
Some of the Spaceworks stuff still has to be made.

Have a great day!
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#6378
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  

GS, massive crawls are useless.
Almost no gamer will ever have the money and/or the inclination to get that much MM.
Tom of France and IO are abberations to this rule.

The best sell for MM, especially SF MM, is to show settings that a normal gamer could really use to play.
Themed set-ups made with only a few sets will get more money for DF than the huge crawl pics.
Huge crawl pics generally demoralize gamers and turn them up sour grapes.



I couldn't disagree more, Fox. What are you basing this assumption on? If, by "normal gamer" you really mean "gamer on a budget," then I can almost see your point. If you're talking about gamers who are inclined to buy DF anyway (by this I mean gamers who use miniatures on a regular basis and enjoy pre-fab scenery,) then I can't see how pictures of large setups can be demoralizing. If anything, they can inspire us by showing building possibilities we might not have thought of before.

And since we're on the topic, is there really any such thing as a "normal gamer?"

As for huge crawls, I think there's a lot more appeal there than you're seeing. I'm not going to generalize, but from my own experience, I couldn't wait to collect enough DF to stage a huge crawl (which lasted three sessions and was a blast, BTW!)
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#6379
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  

Your ratio has a heavy Passage component while mine is heavy with Alphas and their large open-space pieces.
This difference shows our differing emphasis in how we play.
I play actual wargames (BattleTroops, Star Grunt II, etc.) with a good number of units of size while you play with a Space Hulk-style emphasis which is just a few figures being played with.
I do not see how you can have a cool SW campaign without having enough open-space for units to fight in.
Then again, if all you are playing with is a Jedi and just a few comrades against a Sith and just a few of his henchman, then you may be able to create something.
Theme is everything!

Have a great day!


Actually i am using for RPG, and for a SW campaign, there are more tight in instances than big open spaced fights in the movies, let alone drawing in EU sorces. While SW has it's share of battles in big places, most aren't open unless you have a big battle going on, and then i would rather have war game style terrain than DF.

E4:ANH, the move starts with a tight cramped fight onboard a space ship, in the corridors, passages set works great for that, as well as many of the scences on the death star which take place in the corridors, and the detention block, there are 5 "scences" (tantive fight, docking control, detention block (all make the wholr running fight 1 scene, even through in the Trash compactor), vader/obi duel), where it is not "wide open spaces", the only wide open space figths are in the two docking bays 94 and DS, ance even the 94 bay isn't wide open it has lots of cover from the falcon (i think han ducks behind a landing strut at one point and pegs a Stromie), the other spce you want to create in a thread was the Massassi temple port, which isn't wide open sure it's big but for a fact we know some where they had at least 30 ships in that complex, and we see a number of them crowdign about wich while a large area isn't open there are tons of ships for cover and crates, etc. so it's 5 to 2 for 'crawl' type environments.
E5:ESB the Hoth invasion is 50/50 we get to see a huge running battle and the imps storm the base, one open, the other tight, but before that we have the wampa cave, and the wampa ambush. again 50/50, the Probe droid ambush while open is not wide, happens in a confined area between drifts, i'll give you that one, but later we have Luke in the confined dark side tree/cave, working his way through the halls of Cloud city, and then Leia, chewie, lando doing the same fighting Stormtroopers, not wide open spaces. 3 to 3
E6:RotJ Jabbas palace throne room, and entry way, then the Rancor Fight Confined, Pit of Carcoon, open, with some confined as well, the throne room duel, and the bunker confined, the only big spaces are the forest battle, and that;s just big it is massivly crowded and confined with trees bebris etc.
E1:TPM the Corridors of the Trade Fed Ship are a running fight in passage ways, then after a small skirmish in the forest, Hanger fight is a big space but in the start confined by the uhm huge ship, then the duel of the fates, while in a huge area has little actual terrain, many walkways and the like, it is one of the biggest open area scences thats not a hanger, and it ends in a confined room. The assualt on the throne room takes place in the corridors of the palace not wide open spaces. there is a big huge battle out on the plains of naboo, which is one of the biggest widest spaces, but you can't really do that with DF anyway.
E3:AtoC the landing platform fight between Obi and Jango is open, but not that big, Anakins slaughter of the Tuskens is a nice decent sized area but very cramped with tents, the Arena is one of the biggest most open area for a fight, with no army scale (then the whole battle on the Geonosian flats), and we get cramped again with the little hanger fight between obi anakin, yoda and Tyranus.

Where is the need for Large open spaces, and why do you need DF for that any way?

They may be usless to you, but i'm not knocking your game play and could care less with what you play or how you play it.

on so many threads on these boards, people ask what can i do with just one set? and having limited sets is a hindrence to any thing, look at you, you have 12 sets, that's still "$600 worth" and my point about needing a large number to do something with, you go for Alpha, i have been trying to go pretty balanced with a bit more enphsis on rooms, and room type (the alpha for me makes bigger rooms) becuase i am running an RPG, the point is you don't have 1 set, you can't do anything with 1 set, the drop in price for the Sci-fi was the needed kick to the line to get people to get multipe sets, you could buy two for the price of one, pretty much making it a sure thing that people who had already committed to getting stuff now got more, we were willing to buy at 50 so most had the $50 and would spend it now for the same amount we get 2... since you can't do much with 1, we can get the amount we need to do something with the same money and get a heck of a lot more.
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
Classes of the Old Republic
Some RPG and mini stats including the Exodus and AAT (along with good source of a Mini scale version of the AAT).
 
#6380
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Well, let me give you two the short response.
I kicked out the long one because it was rather LONG and filled with data and statistics that you two probably do not care about.

To start, I must say that you two are not looking at the situation from anywhere I am.
You are both just gamers, plain and simple.
If either one of you had any professional experience in the industry, you do not show it.

Meanwhile, I have worked in the industry, have lived in the industry and have a lot of years invested in the industry.
I am taking a professional break currently from it.
Even folk like Gygax and Garfield had to take breaks to keep it fresh for them and others.
Why?
Because the industry eats up people and ideas.
If it did not, then TSR, GDW, FASA and others of the old giants would still be around.
How many world CEOs do y'all think GW has gone through?
Far more than you might believe.
That is probably the main reason that GW survives - fresh leadership.

I do not have to make assumptions like you accuse YC; I have seen the data.
Looks like DF has too; that is why the move to smaller, less expensive sets.
I still wish that DF was large enough to have both the intro sets and the serious sets.
They could the sell to both type of gamers that way.

YC, pardon me for using the term "normal" when talking about a gamer; I should have used "average" because there is one and companies like GW, Hasbro's WOTC and Topps' WizKids are marketing to that type of gamer.
That is why they are making the big dollars and not the little ones that DF, ArmorCast, WarZone and other niche gaming companies are.
The niche gaming companies market to the "serious gamer" who spends more on a 1:1 comparison with "average gamers" but no where near the sheer amount of money that the "average gamers" do as a group.
The "average gamer" group also outnumbers the "serious gamer" group by a factor of greater than 10:1

YC, if you have not met a single gamer that has been demoralized into non-buying of DF product by their huge crawl pics, you must associate with very few gamers.
I have spoken with a good many that are intimidated by the apparent amount of money you need to spend to have fun with MM and they are not just gamers in the Western U.S.A.!
A good number of these gamers are ones that are willing to buy a bit of ArmorCast, Scotia-Grendel and others companies' terrain for under the star(s) wargaming.
The key here is that they buy a little here and there, and it works for them.
Buying "here a little, there a little" really does not work to achieve the massive crawls that DF has commonly shown.
I remember asking Stefan back in 1998 about one picture and he told me it would take four Room & Passage Sets and three Octagonal Room Sets to achieve the same lay out.
I was aghast; that was $540US of sets!
How many gamers could drop that on just terrain, even in a year's time YC.
Not very many at all!
That means the company is not earning the money it really could. Instead, if the company had layouts that were useful and cool, that would only cost a gamer ~$200 or less, then it have the chance at a greater volume of sales than just the very few massive crawl purchases and thereby make a good deal more money.
Good visual marketing is everything towards success in the U.S.A. YC!
That is why we need to help DF by providing inexpensive lay-outs that actually make sense and are fun.

Granted, it is not just DF that some of these gamers are intimidated by; they are intimidated by any of the terrain companies that slap together these pics of large amounts of their product as the ideal amount of product a gamer should have.
If any these companies would slap together pics of reasonably sized layouts, I honestly think they would make more money.
DF had the schematic layouts on the old WEB page which were fairly reasonable in their scope, but they did not have pics of them with the layouts.
If they had had pics with the schematics, that would have made them all the more effective in selling more MM.

YC, if you think you are an average gamer, then you better rethink.
There are probably few "average gamers" among the 306 registered users on the DF page.
Understand something YC, the "average gamer" buys mostly figures and books and that is just about it.
They spend very little on terrain.
Some would rather play on an empty tabletop than spend anything on terrain.
That is why the companies like GW & WOTC, that aim on getting the money of the "average gamer", focus on getting people to buy their toy soldiers, not a bunch or pre-made terrain.
What we need to do is to come up with really cool layouts that do not cost a great deal of money to collect and then convert the "average gamer" into a "serious gamer" through these enticing layouts both here and in our local stores and clubs.

I have been in gaming a great deal longer than the ~8 years DF has been around YC.
I have seen great terrain items come and go from a number of companies.
The companies that have disappeared always seem to shoot for the big purchase with pics of large amounts of their product shown.
Why?
I do not know exactly, but all of those companies other than DF and ArmorCast have gone the way of the dodo, straight out of business.
I most certainly hope that you do not wish such a fate on DF YC.
Let me truncate my reply to you YC at this point; otherwise we will be getting on to my long response again.

GS, your wargaming must be pretty boring, pretty fast if it always out underneath the star(s).
You must have never fought in a Stalingrad-situation with large buildings in which you must fight in the interiors in room-to-production plant-to-room fighting.
Not all SF military complexes are inside mountains or asteroids and/or are rabbit warrens GS.
Just one example is the Rebel base on Yavin 4.
Just one example of a big room to fight in from that base is the flight deck inside the Massassi temple.
Another example of a big fighting space from elsewhere in SW is a Death Star flight deck.
Here is just one of many non-SW examples: Battletech fiction had its share of engagements that occurred in 'Mech Bays which are large enclosed areas which can easily be done in SF MM.
GS, there are many areas that are enclosed that provide endless opportunities to wargame.

BTW GS, what are "EU sorces"?
You mentioned it in your reply, and I have absolutely no idea what you are trying to reference.

Quite frankly GS, I could care less how you play too, but what I care about is what you and others depict on this forum.
DF is gracious enough to let us have this forum.
It would only be rightly grateful on our part, if we returned the favor with ideas for layouts that would make them some money in return.
Massive crawls just will not do that.
Let me truncate my reply to you here otherwise I could go on for a while.

EDIT: GS: I just figured out what that huge paragraph in the middle of your posting was.
Let me give you credit here for being fairly even-handed with your write up.
It was more even-handed than I would have expected.
On the other hand, could you please float it out a bit better next time.
It would be a lot easier to read.
I, at least would have understood it better, faster if you had.
Thank you for taking the time GS.
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#6381
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Rabidfox, there's no question that DF is a niche company. That's not the point I'm making. Let me break it down for you:

Someone who is inclined to buy Dwarven Forge products is not going to be demoralized by large setups.

You spend a lot of time talking about typical gamers. I'm not disputing that DF buyers are not the same people who buy a bunch of Heroclix and play a game or two with their buddies on the weekends. It's a niche product that appeals to a select segment of the gaming community. Typical gamers as you define them are not going to buy Dwarven Forge, regardless of price point, complexity of setups or any other factors.

So, let's concentrate on the segment of the market that DF can reach. These are the people who take time to set up more complex scenarios and put a permium on quality, 3-D terrain. This is DF's core market, whether they're current customers or not. These are the people DF sells to. These people will not be demoralized by large setups.

Now, if the point you're trying to make in all this is that DF needs to find ways to cross over and market to your Average Gamer, that's a completely different discussion, and one I'd be happy to have.

I'm also all for showcasing smaller 1-2 set layouts. It's all part of the versatility of the product. My first use of DF was a large crawl with a single cavern set that I'd reconfigure on the fly to create different rooms as we'd enter them. Showcasing that kind of use of DF would help people who are on the fence get into the hobby, but I don't see how that makes large setups "useless."

As for the data you mentioned and your credentials in the gaming industry, I'd love to hear more about them, so I can have a better idea of where you're coming from. Myself, I've worked in marketing for the better part of my professional career, and been a gamer for two decades (just so you know where I'm coming from.)
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#6382
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
I have a Question you mention
""demoralized into non-buying of DF product by their huge crawl pics, you must associate with very few gamers.
I have spoken with a good many that are intimidated by the apparent amount of money you need to spend to have fun with MM and they are not just gamers in the Western U.S.A.!


How is your set up in this thread any differnet?
dwarvenforge.com/dwarvenforums/viewtopic.php?p=6309#6309
the Colia Base Vehicle Bay.jpg

It has 1 Cavernous passages, 1 Cavern set, 1 Sci Fi Passage set, 1 Starter set, and that is minimum, while it is hard to tell, the large blue floors could be done with the Room set, but it would take 10 to get the 4 2x2 floors, what is more likely is 6 Alpha sets, either way. With out going into the single pieces you need to get some of the extra bits from the caverns you have (pre sale) 119+109+100+300 or over $600, you don't think that "demoralizes" other gamers?

You mention
"'I remember asking Stefan back in 1998 about one picture and he told me it would take four Room & Passage Sets and three Octagonal Room Sets to achieve the same lay out.
I was aghast; that was $540US of sets!
How many gamers could drop that on just terrain, even in a year's time YC. - Not very many at all! "

Your set up is more than that, or even if we take the sale cost into effect it is $400 or so before the single items you need to make it, or more of the Cavern sets, so your $400 is better than a $540?

How can you say another persons large set up is any more "intimidating" than yours? If you are so worried about the look that others give off on the page, why do you do it yourself?
"I care about is what you and others depict on this forum.
DF is gracious enough to let us have this forum.
It would only be rightly grateful on our part, if we returned the favor with ideas for layouts that would make them some money in return.
Massive crawls just will not do that. "
"
But a Massive open spaced one will? Whats the differnce? Yours pushes Alpha, a Crawl pushes Rooms and Passages? Yeah sell only one product instead of two? better way to make money for them, just sell one thing?!?

You have put up a set with more than i have ever done. for the most part i had less than 6 sets before the sale and all of the pictures i did where done with just 3-5 sets. Yet you can talk about a set up using 10 differnet sets and it's fine, you are not going to be intimidating? It's not a Crawl but it is a massive layout, just becuase it's yours it's okay, or what is the reason you can design a layout with 10 sets and others can't, why is yours less intimidating than others who have large set ups?
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
Classes of the Old Republic
Some RPG and mini stats including the Exodus and AAT (along with good source of a Mini scale version of the AAT).
 
#6383
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Just a quick post to say I am not ignoring you, but I cannot give you a full answer today.
Sorry.
Really busy Monday after an out-of-my-mind weekend.
I just hope the week slows down before the weekend hits.

"demoralized into non-buying of DF product by their huge crawl pics, you must associate with very few gamers.
I have spoken with a good many that are intimidated by the apparent amount of money you need to spend to have fun with MM and they are not just gamers in the Western U.S.A.!


How is your set up in this thread any differnet?
dwarvenforge.com/dwarvenforums/viewtopic.php?p=6309#6309
the Colia Base Vehicle Bay.jpg

It has 1 Cavernous passages, 1 Cavern set, 1 Sci Fi Passage set, 1 Starter set, and that is
minimum, while it is hard to tell, the large blue floors could be done with the Room set, but it
would take 10 to get the 4 2x2 floors, what is more likely is 6 Alpha sets, either way. With out
going into the single pieces you need to get some of the extra bits from the caverns you have (pre
sale) 119+109+100+300 or over $600, you don't think that "demoralizes" other gamers?


I must say you are right about the set-up I posted for the Colia campaign we are running here, as far as size, but not theme.
If DF did individual SF pieces, the Colia set-up would be much less expensive.

But on the otherhand, the set-up actually does something and set-ups like it can be used in a wide variety of wargaming and role-playing situations.
It is not one of those "let us keep turning corners and kill everything in sight" massive crawls that cost between $500-1,200 that are nearly impossible to acquire.

That just seems to be a common thread to many, if not most, of the massive crawls shown here.
There just is not rhyme or reason to them; just an attempt to show off how much MM one has.
Now before someone puts words in my mouth, I have yet to see a set-up of Tom of France's or IO's that did not have a working theme.
They are just really frightfully expensive to reproduce!
That huge castle and keep set-up with the tavern and lots of water by Tom and the underground crawl with the "80 foot" ladder of IO's were really cool, but can you see the cost of just IO's tower that the ladder leads to, let alone the rest of the set-up?
I see them as fabulously imaginative, but not inspirational enough to get past the financial dauntingness of them.

I will agree that I am doing a bit of the "pot calling the kettle black" with this set-up.
I simply gave it out because I had been messaged asking why did I never put up any layouts and this is one we have to build anyway to continue our current campaign.

On the other hand, my comments and encouragements were an attempt to look for a consensus with y'all to see if we can generate some high quality economy-class set-ups that can be done with only 2-3 sets and maybe 5 or fewer loose pieces that can be inspiration for the "average gamer" to move up into the "serious gamer" level of gaming with the assistance of great DF terrain pieces.

Sorry, I really have got to go.
That mad race towards Finals is on.
Another group of students to "massage" on their ways to degrees that do not mean terribly much, but hopefully onward to study skills & habits and at least a little bit of knowledge that I hope will enrich the rest of their lives.
I hope any of you in school truly realize that your instructors are real people too.
I really take a great deal of time to try to make sure that my students really GET what in the world I am talking to them about.
Too many students though just think I can be at their beck and call and take advantage of my need to never be like some of the professors I had years ago.
Sorry, soap box mode.
Have a great day!
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#6384
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
On the other hand, my comments and encouragements were an attempt to look for a consensus with y'all to see if we can generate some high quality economy-class set-ups that can be done with only 2-3 sets and maybe 5 or fewer loose pieces that can be inspiration for the "average gamer" to move up into the "serious gamer" level of gaming with the assistance of great DF terrain pieces.


See, when you put it that way, it sounds perfectly reasonable. Who are you, and what have you done with Rabidfox? :D

Seriously, though, there's a huge difference between the comment above and

massive crawls are useless.
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#6385
Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
On the other hand, my comments and encouragements were an attempt to look for a consensus with y'all to see if we can generate some high quality economy-class set-ups that can be done with only 2-3 sets and maybe 5 or fewer loose pieces that can be inspiration for the "average gamer" to move up into the "serious gamer" level of gaming with the assistance of great DF terrain pieces.


See, when you put it that way, it sounds perfectly reasonable. Who are you, and what have you done with Rabidfox? :D

Seriously, though, there's a huge difference between the comment above and

massive crawls are useless.


What difference?
2-3 sets with 5 or less pieces are in NO way massive crawls!
97.5% of the $500+ massive crawls crawls just have no theme and no soul.
I can only think of Tom of France (T of F), IO and L that have any exceptions to that rule; then again, I do not consider their well designed layouts to be real crawls either.
The Colia Vehicle Bay is not a massive crawl either because it is neither a crawl that wanders into no where like so many massive crawls I have seen pictured here and elsewhere nor is it made from that many individual pieces.
I can see the point though as far as price since DF is unable at this time to do individual SF pieces.
Sorry YC, I still stand by the comment:
massive crawls are useless.

Just look at the term y'all fostered to describe such a place - a CRAWL!
Not very inspiring nor is it flattering.
What is needed are places to adventure that are really somewhere and are not just some hole in the ground.
Those of you who are happy with the nearless endless hole in the ground, well, I guess I need to say sorry to you.
They just have no real place in serious sales.

We all want DF to stay alive and provide us with continuing supplies of old and new cool interiors, yes?

If no, well then, why in the world are you on this forum other than to cause trouble.
Believe it or not, I have been on a forum where a guy with the pseudonym "Buhallin" stayed past the end of his interest in the game involved just to stir up trouble.
It did not matter how many folks asked him nicely to leave or told him to take a hike, he stayed and the moderator said nothing about his poor taste antics.
The nearly absent moderator evidently thought Buhallin's behavior was cute.
UGH!!!

If yes, we should be encouraging all gamers we know to take consistent looks at the three forms of Master Maze.
We should provide them with inexpensive layouts that encourages them to make those beginning sensible purchases that will provide them with months, maybe a year of fun.
At that point we need to encourage them to acquire a set or two more to further the fun.
Then, maybe, with the more serious gamers I can see encouraging them to build bigger, but I still say the crawl idea stereotype is a serious downer as far as selling a product.
The advance building must have soul and theme like IO and T of F consistently produce.
I have showed IO's and T of F's cool layouts to gamers in the regions I currently work in.
There are plenty of cool comments, but lots of fearful questions of, "Do you really have to have that much money spent before you can do something cool."
I pulled all of the layout pics off of the old DF site before it died and have been using those to show what can be done without selling your soul to Lucifer to buy DF items.
It is all very simple actually.

So are we going to continue to throw inuendos and names about like was has been happening or are we going to actually try to convert and to sell DF product to stores and to gamers around us?

See, when you put it that way, it sounds perfectly reasonable.

I think how I sound has much more to do with y'all than with me.
I am just me!
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Sci-Fi Terrain 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Rabidfox, there's no question that DF is a niche company.

Why does it have to be?
If we do our part to make it palatable, then more gamers will actually open their wallets and buy MM.
DF can go mainstream if we, the DF enthusiasts, make the effort and take the time.

That's not the point I'm making. Let me break it down for you:

Someone who is inclined to buy Dwarven Forge products is not going to be demoralized by large setups.


Sorry YC, I have to ask how do you know this?
Have you gone to the major cons and asked gamers from no where near where you live about DF?
Actually, I participated in discussions with gamers from across the States and Canada about DF and its playability and price at GenCon '98, Dragon Con '99, Origins '00 and a good number of minor cons around and since.
Sorry, I have not been able to attend a major con since 2000.
Many I spoke to were gamers that are inclined to buy premade resin terrain, that have purchased goodly amounts of other company's resin product that outright said they did not purchase DF products because from the promo pics it looked like they needed such a very large amount of it to have any fun with it.
The pics spoke louder than I did in all ocassions.

I have also participated in on-line discussions where DF and its products have been topics of debate.
Same attitudes and fears surfaced.

You spend a lot of time talking about typical gamers. I'm not disputing that DF buyers are not the same people who buy a bunch of Heroclix and play a game or two with their buddies on the weekends. It's a niche product that appeals to a select segment of the gaming community. Typical gamers as you define them are not going to buy Dwarven Forge, regardless of price point, complexity of setups or any other factors.

I am sorry I must disagree with your premise here.
If DF products and examples are in much more chewable sizes, I think a much wider assortment of gamers would buy the product.

So, let's concentrate on the segment of the market that DF can reach. These are the people who take time to set up more complex scenarios and put a permium on quality, 3-D terrain. This is DF's core market, whether they're current customers or not. These are the people DF sells to. These people will not be demoralized by large setups.

Are the products produced by ArmorCast premium 3D terrain YC?
I know gamers that will not buy DF product due to the problem I have described, who send their funds Armorcast's way because their layouts make sense and are not seen as huge chunks all at once.
Ask IO if investing in ArmorCast pieces is done by only casual gamers.
I honestly see a good portion of the serious gamer market DF is missing because of the apparent huge outlay of cash one must start out with to do anything cool from the evidence of the massive crawl pics.

Now, if the point you're trying to make in all this is that DF needs to find ways to cross over and market to your Average Gamer, that's a completely different discussion, and one I'd be happy to have.

It is not really a different discussion YC.
To get sales from both portions of the community, who are reluctant to buy, once must give them cool "milk and water" set-ups, not "meat" ones, so as to encourage the first purchase and then following ones.
"Meat" layouts can come later.

I must admit here that there are a few odd-duck gamers, some here on the forum, that just take the bit between their teeth and run after terrain items like DF, but these gamers are few and far between when it comes to serious sales.
Think about it, there are only 309 registered users on the DF forum.
I bet this is less than 10% of the folks that actually own any DF product.
But, what were the attendance numbers of a typical GenCon back in the 90s?
Some were approaching >60,000 persons for the weekend.
I would imagine if you combine the current numbers of GenCon Indy and So. Cal. that number would more than be double.
That does not even count you folks in the UK and Europe with your two GenCons.
Most con attendees were serious gamers, but how many of them have actually purchased MM?
Not enough because a good many I have spoken to have that intimidation problem I have been discussing and y'all have been discounting.
Seriously, what percentage of serious gamers in your local game stores actually have MM and use it?
I bet the number will be smaller than you think and could be much larger than it is.

I'm also all for showcasing smaller 1-2 set layouts. It's all part of the versatility of the product. My first use of DF was a large crawl with a single cavern set that I'd reconfigure on the fly to create different rooms as we'd enter them. Showcasing that kind of use of DF would help people who are on the fence get into the hobby, but I don't see how that makes large setups "useless."

I am talking as far as the themeless crawls and such as being completely useless.
I am even talking that my Colia Vehicle Bay and the really cool set-ups of IO and T of F are marginal in their usefullness in getting DF sales up.
What we need are cool and exciting set-ups that require no more than a $200 investment in a year's time to seriously get MM sales up to the level that will ensure the sustainability of DF and its MM product.

As for the data you mentioned and your credentials in the gaming industry, I'd love to hear more about them, so I can have a better idea of where you're coming from. Myself, I've worked in marketing for the better part of my professional career, and been a gamer for two decades (just so you know where I'm coming from.)

Here you go:
1) Been wargaming since the early '70s - probably about '72 or '73.
I started off with historicals, especially Second World War games.
The AH games frustrated me to no end since all they were was games of chits.
I then got into miniature historical game systems and made up other rules to fit my thinking.

2) Military service of which I will say very little other than to say I did earn my CIB and gained a very real understanding of tactics (company level or lower) and more than a very real passing acquaintance with screwed up strategic support (battalion on up).

3) playtester of some FASA BT products through clubs I belonged to in the early 90s.
Very frustrating when FASA only puts the name of the club in the credits of a book.
Then again, one club, on its third or fourth opportunity it had to playtest, had 20+ folks doing things with the playtest.
I understand it takes up a bit of space when you print everybody.

That all ended with the arrival of Bryan Nystul as BT developer.
Some of us were labelled as Sam Lewis' cronies, and Bryan did not want any of us still around.
We were too combined arms focused and not 'mech-enough for him.

4&5) Yes, I worked for the evil empire for two years.
I wanted a different job at the time; I had been working at a real loser of game shoppe at the time.
The owner was one of those hobbyists and till-dippers I spoke about on a different thread.
Two of us who worked for him actually paid attention to what sold and what did not plus we understood that in-store gaming is an essential lifeline to keep a serious game shoppe in business.
We kept the shoppe going when his irresponsibility would have had it die.
I got tired of it and left to GW when I landed a position as a teletroll in MO.
In the next seven months I had worked and gravitated myself to senior teletroll.
My fellow worker at the shoppe, Scott, took off to WOTC when he landed an open position they had.
The pay off here is that the store went under nine months after I left and five months after Scott left.
We told the loser how to have his store survive, but he would just not listen us because he did not want to stop dipping in the till.
I just wish I could have been there for the store closing sale that must have happened; I would have cleaned up.

I actually met Stefan and Master Maze at GenCon '97 when I was there on part of the team representing GW.
That was also the first massive crawl of DF I saw.
I was at GenCon'97 because GW had started using teletrolls to sell WD subs at the cons.
I had sold the most subs in MO in the first third of '97 so I got my choice of con to work at.
I had never been to GenCon before so I chose that one.
Kind of sad though; it was the first GenCon after the demise of TSR - I was told the prior ones were much better - I know '98 was not much better than '97, but both were still fun.
Other teletrolls went to DragonCon, Origins and where ever GW Hobby Support went.
After a couple of years I got tired of the ethical dilemmas I kept finding myself in at GW so I left.

6) My wife and I worked as figure painters for Geo-Hex for some of their Capricorn Space division figures.
These were the Star Grunt II, Dirtside II and Full Thrust figures that KR had the right to produce for GZG here in the States.
KR was a great guy and the demise of Geo-Hex was really sad.

7,8&9) Since then, I have help out on the side at several game stores, as a store wargame referee and/or a part-time employee, in the three areas where I have been posted since I left GW.
I have contractual work obligations that I have taken on that prevent me from doing more than that currently.
I almost always use MM in my games I run even though all I run is wargames.
Cavern MM is great for real BT and other 1/285-300 games; sorry, "Classic BT" sounds so lame.

Does this answer your credentia question YC?
This took longer to answer than I thought and I have probably still missed some details.
It has been 30+ years of personal history.

You said you work in marketing YC.
Marketing what?

Will I go back to the gaming industry?
Maybe at the end of my current contract, if I can find a company I like that does not behave like GW.
It was fun being a playtester and figure painter for companies.
Being in MO @ GW was okay too, but the average immaturity, irresponsibility and immorality of a good portion of my co-workers was a real downer.
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