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DF and 'outdoors' product line
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TOPIC: DF and 'outdoors' product line
#12900
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say they'd self-destruct. And I disagree that currently available terrain is "perfectly good" (but I'd rather not conduct that debate here). And I think that if DF does decide to go into exteriors, they will take their sweet time and not release anything until they have a solid business plan in place AND the finished product is of the same incredibly high quality their other products are.

RIGHT NOW is not the time, although I think in a couple-few years it might be a viable area to explore. DF is already expanding their product line, but at the same time they seem to be having production issues. Overextending probably wouldn't destroy them, but it might set them back sufficiently to interrupt or delay development and production of other projects currently in the pipeline.

I still think that a "second team" approach might be worth considering, but whatever they do should be in the interests of maintaining the company over the long run. I want to be buying DF products when I'm old and grey...
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#12901
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
IMHO If DF wanted to do exterior stuff Steven would come up with a way to do it that would set it apart from other companies. I don't think Steven would do exterior's unless he had an idea for something so unique, that one could not get it from some other source. I don't think it would be any more a risk then some of the sets he's already tried, and probalby less of one.

I for one would buy exterior stuff from DF.

My vote is whatever Steven wants to do, it's his company to enjoy without stockholders....

Robert
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#12902
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
Here's my take on it. Yes, I'd love to see Dwarven Forge make more terrain. All I'd have to do is sweet talk my wife into letting me get it. Okay, that can entail a few Diplomacy checks - thank gosh I use loaded dice for that!

BUT, here's the rub. Dwarven Forge, though run by gamers for gamers, is still a business. That means that their products have to return a profit, not a loss, to produce. Until Stefan and Jeff hit the lottery, that means that they can't produce products that won't sell in sufficient quantities to make the venture successful.

The Ogre's Den was an example of a one-off creation that was cool as all get out, but wasn't a big seller. Why? Because very few people bought more than one set. Heck, I'll wager that few Master Maze buyers even bought one, because of its more limited use. I bought one, but couldn't think of a good reason to buy two.

So, while I'd happily buy more terrain stuff from the boys at DF, I know they have to make careful assessments of what will keep them afloat. I want Dwarven Forge to continue to exist, as they've made me a very happy camper indeed. I love their stuff, and look forward to more sets coming out.

So, unless they think that such a set would sell enough to offset the costs involved in producing it, they can't do it. So, though there are things we'd love to see from them, it may be that there aren't enough other people willing to buy those same things to make it profitable for them.

In the meantime, I'm going to happily wait for my three Cavernous River sets to arrive. Drool, drool...

Kradlo
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#12903
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say they'd self-destruct.
Overextension of company resources is self-destruction in business sir.
A very simple, but a very common mistake in business overall and in the gaming industry specifically.
See: TSR 1996.

And I disagree that currently available terrain is "perfectly good" (but I'd rather not conduct that debate here).
If you include product produced in paper, resin and foam, let alone the little in metal available, you most certainly have viable collection to choose from.
All that matters is how much you are willing to spend on S&H.
Fantasy and historical has a very large selection of choices to choose from so I do not agree with your counter.

And I think that if DF does decide to go into exteriors, they will take their sweet time and not release anything until they have a solid business plan in place AND the finished product is of the same incredibly high quality their other products are.
Yes, of course, it would be good quality, but that still does not provide them with a Lotto win or a money tree to do it.
It is just beyond their feasible scope and way beyond their bread-'n-butter market.

RIGHT NOW is not the time, although I think in a couple-few years it might be a viable area to explore. DF is already expanding their product line, but at the same time they seem to be having production issues. Overextending probably wouldn't destroy them, but it might set them back sufficiently to interrupt or delay development and production of other projects currently in the pipeline.

I still think that a "second team" approach might be worth considering, but whatever they do should be in the interests of maintaining the company over the long run. I want to be buying DF products when I'm old and grey...

A couple of years in business is an "eyeblink".
Exteriors, as patterned against the last ten years of DF corporate development, is at least another ten years away.
Business is like combat.
One must take AND consolidate gains; otherwise, you outstrip your logistics train.
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#12904
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
IMHO If DF wanted to do exterior stuff Steven would come up with a way to do it that would set it apart from other companies. I don't think Steven would do exterior's unless he had an idea for something so unique, that one could not get it from some other source. I don't think it would be any more a risk then some of the sets he's already tried, and probalby less of one.

I for one would buy exterior stuff from DF.

My vote is whatever Steven wants to do, it's his company to enjoy without stockholders....

Robert

Robert,

Stefan may not have stockholders, but he still has customers.
All of us Robert, feel that Stefan does a great job, but the reality is still that Stefan has not won the Lotto, found a functioning money tree or had a rich relative leave him as sole heir.
Many here Robert would buy exteriors if Stefan sculpted them and Dwarven Forge made them, but no one has given a single solid reason why Dwarven Forge should leave its market that it nearly has sole possession of and enter a market glutted with competition.
It just would not be a wise business move on Stefan's or on Jeff's part.
Let Dwarven Forge grow inside its market to true solvency and then encourage them to go adventuring elsewhere Robert.
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#12905
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
The Ogre's Den was an example of a one-off creation that was cool as all get out, but wasn't a big seller. Why? Because very few people bought more than one set. Heck, I'll wager that few Master Maze buyers even bought one, because of its more limited use. I bought one, but couldn't think of a good reason to buy two.
The best evidence why adventuring off by Dwarven Forge into limited use terrain or high competition areas, like exterior terrain, is not a business-smart idea!
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#12906
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
I was one of those who bought an Ogre's Den (named for my late father-in-law!), and I've only ever come up with ONE reason for more than one;

The Dungeon Hotel: Nasties check in, but they Don't check out!

Okay, so it was a lame joke; what are they gonna do, send me to 'Nam? (in-group humor for the vets in the forum.)

Anyway, I never really came up with any other cause to multi-buy the Den. Did anyone else? Besides, Room & Passage or deluxe Room does at least as good a job for rows of cells or 'lodgings', and does it at a much lower cost-per-unit basis.

IIRC, my FLGS still has an Ogre's Den sitting there on the floor, looking for a home. Along with several passage pieces, a Traps II set, and a brand-new DoE that I'm eyeing, but not for $130 plus tax! I can get it for less right from DF!

See ya!

Jim
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#12907
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
You know, that's the first time I've been tempted to buy the Den more than once... that DOES seem neat. I'm picturing a long passage with, like, two Dens on each side....

I was on the fence about getting it way back when, I was so intoxicated by the modularity of DF I didn't see the point of something like that. BUT I never regretted it, and it's a piece I incorporate somewhat often.

I think Stefan did a really great job of anticipating usefulness for the piece, set against the disadvantages of a "fixed" room. It's big enough to have encounters in, to store treasure in, to pack a lot of detail in -- but it's small enough that you don't lose your ability to make a dungeon just by having it. It doesn't take away from the modularity of a setup THAT much, it doesn't have a big enough footprint to interrupt your own personal dungeon plan. In short, it's too small to "get in the way."

Plus, it does offer a lot of shortcuts. It's not only a ready-made room, but it gives you an outer wall for any number of OTHER rooms, it places a lot of pieces at once for you, and it does break up the possible monotony of having so many rooms all identically designed.

I'm a big fan of the Den, though it's not usually a piece I single out as a "must buy" for first time fans. In my dream world, where DF is financially secure enough to do whatever they want, there would definitely be two or three or four more rooms like this -- a Wizard's Study, a Torture Chamber, a Royal Bedroom, a Throne Room, a Tavern Kitchen.....

L
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#12908
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
I only bought one Ogre's Den.... I always thought that if it were about twice the size it would be more useful as a ready made boss room. I have wanted more than one to put on opposite sides of a corridor for the look of sleeping quarters. Not much furnishings would fit into the room but you could change up the paint job on the rug and fire place That might make it more usable. Hey jkratzer " How much do they want for that OD???" LOL. I just scored big time at a somewhat local Con down here. Aggie Con was the name. I did not find any DF at the Con but the area " Collage Station " had two small game stores. One had 4 sets. Cavern!!! WA1 & 2 and a 15 short passage set!!!!! After blowing off the dust " he said they were there for 10 years " I asked the guy if he would give a discount for all 4 and he game me 25%!!!! I could not believe my luck... Those Dusty sets are out there folks!!! Take Heart!!!! Sorry way way off topic... Outside stuff. Hummmmmmm. Can't see it in the near future but who knows what is happening behind closed doors and the Forge... I only last night saw the preorder site for the River!!! OMG!! I pulled out mister Visa and got three sets and that new cavern I got will help my meager few cavern pieces that I already have.
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#12909
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
Phew, (stands back in surprise), some prety strong comments there. No, I was certainly not making the suggestion from malice. I LOVE the DF product. having sunk over £1000 into it. Long may it continue! I take your point, jkratzer, about not wanting to risk the DF spreading themselves too thinly. On the other hand, you don't have to be a business genius (I am certainly not) to realise that firms need to occasionally take small, calculated risks and dip their toes into the waters of diversity if they want to survive in the long term. What happens when most of the 'core' DF fan base have 3 sets of everything - there is only so much Fantasy Dungeon that most people will ever buy before saying to themselves "I have enough of this sort of product now." (I can't speak for Sci-Fi as I haven't got any, I know there are a lot of customers who feel there needs to be a lot more of this too). I suppose the reason I started the thread, was to see who would buy an outdoor set. All I can say is that there are a group of us here who would! Yes there's competition re the outdoor stuff but DF, in my opinion corners the market for connosieur terrain. Look at GHQ - they charge approx 3 times as much as their competitors for their Micro-Armour but they sweep the board simply because of their excellent quality. I believe DF could do the same if they cautiously attempted some outdoor set. I love your idea of a 'second RandD team.' Little Brother DF? A subsidiary company under Stefan's control? Hmm Interesting.

Thanks for the honesty - after some reflection, I realise that it's great to be part of a 'community' that can be honest and passionate without being rude!

Dave
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#12910
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
Rabidfox,

I don't know what to say. I was just you know, kind of just talking about the topic. I mean...yeah, I guess you are right, I just did not think about anything more then how I felt on the topic of DF doing exterior products, which are they would be great, and they have every right to.

I never meant to state that they should do anything to endanger their company, or in any way stop doing their current line. I dunno..I guess I spoke without thinking, sorry.

chastised
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#12911
DF and 'outdoors' product line 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
I have often thought about doing some outdoor terrain...I think we can make some really, really kool stuff...but right now we have a lot of other things on our plate, so perhaps somewhere down the road...
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