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Feast Your Eyes!
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TOPIC: Feast Your Eyes!
#6919
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Well, if I can add my two cents, I skipped 2e altogether and I was a die-hard 1E fan back in the day. I stopped when it went away, and only came back because DF looked so cool in my local store I was sucked right back into gaming.....

There are a lot of things I don't like about 3e -- the cyberpunk aesthetic is right at the top. (as is the use of recurring "characters" like Lidda and Redgar and whatever, in every single supplement) I like my wizards to be old men in robes, not balding guys in asymmetrical leather harnesses with straps all over the place.

(shorthand: I prefer Reaper minis to WOTC, at least much of the time -- though I do really like some of the WOTC pieces)

But while I don't like wizards in plate armor wielding swords, I don't mind the idea that some of these things are now penalties rather than strictly verboten. A wizard willing to deal with the consequences can wear whatever s/he wants.... doesn't bug me TOO much.

And even though I think the mechanics could be better, I do in general like skills and feats. I like the capacity to nuance characters beyond class. In "basic D&D" you were an elf and that was it. In AD&D you were an elf fighter. Now you can be an elf fighter who specializes in archery and two-handed fighting.

(on the mechanics of all this: way too arbitrary IMHO -- who determines the CR? And how many checks? I need to do a listen check while you do a move silently check while I do a listen for move silently check while you do a -- it's not streamlined enough for my taste)

I don't play in tourneys, though, largely for this reason. I just like coming up with house rules, and I've always used the official rules as templates and suggestions more than anything else. It's just not fun otherwise.

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#6920
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
I try to play 3E as old school as I can. I use a lot of Necromancer Games stuff: 3rd edition rules, 1st edition feel (and body count! :twisted: ) There is a certain nostaliga to playing the older rules once in awhile. After 3 years now though, I prefer d20 as a regular diet though.
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#6921
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Wow, DD. Sounds like you have some pretty strong opinions on the topic. Me, I play 3E fairly old school as well. The emphasis in my games is on character and roleplaying. The rules are just a means to an end.

To me, it's still a game about killing monsters and getting treasure, but it's also storytelling and developing characters, and anything that makes the storytelling easier is good by me.

And a lot of the things you mention are still there. Level drain is there (just ask my players!) If PCs can power up fast, then so can the monsters. Anyone can be anything (subject to prerequisites and alignment and so on,) but that stops a lot of metagaming. Let a mid-level party get routed by a few goblin sorcerers just once and it will make them get their head in the game and take every encounter seriously. (As for the player you mention who asked about CR, that's like asking a character what his alignment is. It's bad form and just shouldn't be done.)

Eberron...well, that's a different story. I use a homemade campaign setting, so Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Dragonlance and the like are only source material for me. I pick and choose what I want and discard the rest. Eberron isn't really steampunk, though. They kind of presented it that way early on, so I can see where that impression came from. The Warforged are a pretty lame idea, I'll grant, but the rest of the setting is not that big of a departure from anything we've seen in D&D in the past. Am I wild about it? No. Does it bother me? I can't say that it does.

Anyway, I'm not trying to change your mind. It's interesting to me to hear other points of view. It's also pretty cool that 1E can have that kind of longevity.
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#6922
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Have you guys tried Castles and Crusades by Troll Lord Games? Gary Gygax himself is redeveloping Castle Greyhawk specifically for C&C.

As soon as I picked up C&C I never looked back. They have the "feel" of BD&D with the simplicity of d20 mechanics. No feats, no PrC, no Multiclassing (yet). Power to the DM, more importantly TRUST to the DM and Storyline. On top of that, as an example of simplicity, you can roll up a PC in less than 10mins. But don't confuse simplicity with the depth that C&C can go. Due to its simple rules and flexibility, it is easy to weave intricate plots and you can get great character development. The Trolls write a few times in the PHB, "If you as the DM don't like a rule...change it. You don't have to follow any of the rules here."

But it's either you love it or hate it. C&C is not a game for people that like "rules". I personally never liked 3ed. I found it to be very mechanical where players had more power than the DM. (Re: DD's complaint about players asking for CRs)

If you like "old school" dungeons and dragons, give C&C a try. I promise you won't regret it.

This is a great review for C&C and truly details and captures what C&C is about. There are others but they are terribly biased reviews from 3ed fanboys.

www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11008.phtml
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#6923
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Have you guys tried Castles and Crusades by Troll Lord Games? Gary Gygax himself is redeveloping Castle Greyhawk specifically for C&C.

As soon as I picked up C&C I never looked back. They have the "feel" of BD&D with the simplicity of d20 mechanics. No feats, no PrC, no Multiclassing (yet). Power to the DM, more importantly TRUST to the DM and Storyline. On top of that, as an example of simplicity, you can roll up a PC in less than 10mins. But don't confuse simplicity with the depth that C&C can go. Due to its simple rules and flexibility, it is easy to weave intricate plots and you can get great character development. The Trolls write a few times in the PHB, "If you as the DM don't like a rule...change it. You don't have to follow any of the rules here."

But it's either you love it or hate it. C&C is not a game for people that like "rules". I personally never liked 3ed. I found it to be very mechanical where players had more power than the DM. (Re: DD's complaint about players asking for CRs)

If you like "old school" dungeons and dragons, give C&C a try. I promise you won't regret it.

This is a great review for C&C and truly details and captures what C&C is about. There are others but they are terribly biased reviews from 3ed fanboys.

www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/11/11008.phtml


I had the unique pleasure of playing C&C with Gary Gygax and Rob Kuntz last summer at the Milwaukee Gamefest (RIP). As to it's "old school"-ness, I can tell you that the stuff that wasn't complete we used copies of the 1e Player's Handbook to fill in. It's that old-school.

EDIT: in the interest of keeping this a "Cool Photos" forum:



From right to left: Me, Rob Kuntz, Gary Gygax, and one of the artists who's worked on C&C. A full write-up of my fun at the con can be found here:

http://delversdungeon.dragonsfoot.org/Articles/mgf1.htm
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#6924
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Well I neither love nor hate it. Our group decided that if we really wanted old school we would just play 1E. They didn't want to learn a new system.
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#6925
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Just my $.02 (having been on the 64 different sides of this subject of DnD3.X vs. everything else):

I applaud all the Grognards and Phatbeards everywhere... 'cause I'm one of you. I've been playing since 1978 and cannot think of a 6 month period since then that I have not played some RPG - even while in the Navy.

RPGs played:1ed, 2ed, 3ed, 3.5ed DnD (and everything in between), Cyberpunk, Ars Magica, Shadowrun, Vampire and Werewolf, Deadlands, Gamma World, Star Frontiers, Twighlight 2000, GURPS, Car Wars, I forgot the rest.

I just say this because I do really like the 3.x system or D20 over other systems. I hated it at first though but learned to like it for the dynamic it created between my players and I - mainly the players get some control over their own characters. I also evolved as a DM into a more "off the cuff style" which creates more of an "I'm playing too" dynamic as opposed to the "I'm spending all my freetime creating something that my friends get to play with" dynamic.

One thing I hated back in the day was the DM making arbitrary decisions and not having consistency in rulings in similar situations. Heck, this was even in the mechanics. Everything had a different die roll to me!

Anyway... I digress... I'm totally off subject.

I occasionally play an ADnD game or even 2ed game to show respect for what got me to where I am today.

I'm glad some of you are keeping it alive - it needs to be done. Keep running them!! :D
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#6926
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
I believe the C&C artist you speak of is Peter Bradley.

As for the arbitrary DMness, I do definitely agree. That's why I would not recommend C&C to a new DM. Through its simplicity (and somewhat incompleteness if you didnt get the Collectors Edition), C&C is actually a more complex game for a DM to run "well".

3ed. gives very little leeway to a DM to make a mistake since everything is pretty much detailed. But that is both the pro and con of 3ed imho. It is balanced (3.0 that is) and well thought out if you stay to the 3 core books. About using only the core books, that is a different topic to argue over some other day. :)

Anyways back to the topic, it is balanced but at the same time I think that 3ed is restrictive in the sense that there is little a DM can do or change freely on the fly.

Oh right... cool photos erm... here's one of my Imperial Guard Officer
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#6927
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
I heart 3.5. I've been RPGing since the mid 80's, and the only system I loved more then 3.5 was MERP!! Merp, and it's older bro Rolemaster are some serious gaming stuff.

I guess I look at DnD as a game, and the objective is to win! Oh, roleplaying is fun, and leads to all sorts of wacky plot hooks and fun in themselves, but our group is a pretty lighthearted group that loves to kill things and find the neatest way to do it. My fave char is the bard because I love figuring out ways to make him combo with other characters to wreak havoc, and I love charming NPC's and making them my bitches!!

1E... how many years did it take to be a bard.... eeekkk!! But once you were a bard, you kicked some but. My fave 1E char was the ranger.... 2D8 HP at first level, plus con bonus, and then you get druid and mage spells! Smackdown!!!

Anyhow, thanks for putting up with my commentary. Just thought I should mention there are some of us who like 3.5 for what it is. That said, between all my splat books and DnD mini's , I can't imagine playing anything else, I need to get a return on the investment for the next 50 years! (I do have nearly all the hardbound 1E and the old box sets though, great stuff to take out and think about playing, until I realize I need to figure out the rules again....then I lose my enthusiasism. :)
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Robert
 
#6928
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Yeah that is a great room. I guess the sarcafagus fell into the crack. Did they have to go down and get it? Or did it come up and get them? :twisted: Ehhhhhhh, that coment was refering to the start of this string. I have herd of C&C but have not been able to find any anywhere yet....
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#6929
Feast Your Eyes! 9 Years, 6 Months ago  
Me... Go Off Topic?!?!? :shock:


I Actually Like 3.5 quite a bit... (I Was Dubious about 3.0, but ended up Enjoying it... I Like 3.5 Better)... What I Do Not Like is a New System Coming out every Few Years... I Really Hope that 4.0 is Really Far off if Ever...

I Also like the Concept of the D20 open Source System... (Not Totaly Original Of Course, I Mean GURPS has been around for a Long Long time, And Palladium Took a Similar Stance with The Rifts Stuff... Being Sytem Oriented rather than Game Oriented that is)...
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