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Invincible overlord and cronies
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TOPIC: Invincible overlord and cronies
#10567
Invincible overlord and cronies 8 Years, 9 Months ago  
HEh heh heh

...

Oh, and RF, I don't think GS was really implying anything huge about "laughing and losing." You've implied pretty strongly that you'd be bored in a game against people with no wargaming skills such that your victory was quick and uninteresting. So clearly you can imagine winning and still being bored? So "winning" does not equal "having fun" -- and I think GS was picturing a situation where a game is well played and interesting and you still lose. Sure, you want to learn from it and win next time, and you weren't IN it to lose. But it's still fun! Anyone who can only enjoy games they win is in for a lot of misery in this life...

L

I guess L, this is one of the times we will have to agree to disagree.
I did not and still do not read GS's comments the way you do.
Might you be reading in your own gaming ideals into what GS wrote?

You've implied pretty strongly that you'd be bored in a game against people with no wargaming skills such that your victory was quick and uninteresting.
Not true L - "easy" wins can be a learning experience if one is prepared mentally to view life's experiences that way.
L, one always has to be mindful of one of Murphy's Military Maxims:
"Professional soldiers are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs."
The skilless can still provide interesting encounters L; a myriad of opportunities to learn.
The professionals in the world always try to achieve what Master Sun called "formlessness" which many times, amateurs achieve by accident and inexperience.
Master Sun said if you knew yourself, but had no form, your enemies would be confounded and unprepared at all times.
That is our goal while playing our games.

You are right though that slaughtering the clueless can leave a feeling question of, "Where was the fun?", but even situations like that can be transformed into learning experiences.
This is especially so if the clueless is adequately impressed and wants to learn how to do what you just did to them.
Then the time expended in such slaughter can be salvaged into something quite useful in the long run.

I do not understand where you and many others over the years think that folks like me and mine think the only fun to be had is in winning
There is a great difference in learning from losses, aka failures in life (a good habit), and laughing them off (a ridiculous perversion of fair play ideals).
True "fun" in gaming is in the learning; at least that how our group looks at such here in our engagements and AARs.
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#10568
Invincible overlord and cronies 8 Years, 9 Months ago  
No harm done, RS, I see what you're saying. I was reading the Patton ref. as an indictment against anyone who could say they still enjoyed a game they lost.

I still feel like I approach the game differently from a lot of people. I remember being most taken by D&D back in 1983 or so because it simply didn't involve "winning" and "losing" the way other games did. Sure, there are combat situations where victory is clearly the objective -- but the game involves a lot more than combat, and what counts as "winning" in general is so amorphous and inconclusive it simply isn't the right paradigm to apply. As soon as you "win" anything in D&D there is another challenge, and victories and defeats (in combat and elsewhere) bring such an equal mix of benefits and challenges it can sometimes seem difficult to tell which would be preferable.

But this is starting to become a topic for "gaming talk" rather than "CP" so I'll just cut myself short and say "Happy New Year!" to you, RS, and everyone else here on the DF forums! Enjoy a banner year, DF folks, and hope we're all around to ring in 2007!

L
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