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How is Dark World coming along?
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#7371
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
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#7372
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
The very first words out of said teen's mother was, "What is that ugly demonic looking terrain?"

I'm not sure whether to be surprised or dissapointed by such a reaction? Do you think she would equate demonic with the Gargoyles on the pieces? I hardly think they represent something so extreme. Gothic, yes. Dark? Definitely. Satanic/Demonic? That's pushing it. As to ugly, I just can't agree.

I'm not sure if I understood the situation correctly. Are the parents buying DF stuff for the teen, or for themselves? Either way, I still find it odd that a preview picture would turn them off DF, especially if they already own other sets. They can accept the concept of fantasy-based worlds but are offended by a darker look? It's like a gamer's paradox!

The point of why this questioning parents is important is that last I heard from GAMA 7.58 purchasers out of 10 purchasers of gaming product are parents buying it for those whom they have responsibility for.
Hard-core gamers do not even make up 2 out of ten purchasers from that very same statistical pool.
GAMA has no motivation to lie to the game companies and shoppes so the statistics, which have been gathered over years of research, have a fairly high reliability quotient.

Why do you think GW keeps changing their games to market to a younger and younger crowd with each revision of W40K and WFB?
Because the parents are the real sources of money in this world.
GW and other gaming companies understand when marketing gaming products, they need to appeal to the prime audience, which is currently 13-14yo and their parents's financial assets.


I completely agree that gaming companies have for main target the young crowd and the parent's purchasing power. The point I was trying to make was that DF stood out from these companies because of their product. By manufacturing an expensive array of accessories made to be used in conjunction with other games, they cater to a smaller, more hardcore audience, that of the older, more fiscally responsible. People who can afford both games AND such fine accessories to go with them.

If DF was only marketing to the hardcore gamer, why then the switch in the last year to less expensive, smaller sets?


That's a good question. It could be to finally gain shelf space in FLGS', to allow a customer to buy sets on an impulse (easier to drop 50$ than 100+$) or even to allow for a smaller production schedule (Fantasy Floor Set). If this approach yields more sets like the Fantasy Floors, I'm all for it.

On the other hand, the RPG companies must think they are above such matters with their ever spiraling upward book costs.
I have been in gaming long enough to remember when $18 for a sourcebook was considered extremely expensive.
Now $35 seems to be the desired average which is way too much for how little most of these books provide.


This goes along with the point I'm trying to make. Parents may be kind enough or rich enough to get their kids the numerous books and miniatures/supplements needed for their hobby, which can cost a pretty penny. The parents might therefore be more reluctant to spend even more money on a product like DF that they could see as secondary.

I have every desire to see a healthy Dwarven Forge survive many years down the pike.
Primarily, I have a profound desire to have a complete Science Fiction gaming terrain system out of them over the next few years.
Secondarily, that includes a more complete Cavern system as well.


I would hope we all do. The sci-fi line's potential has only been slightly showcased, and a new cavern set or two would make a lot of people here happy!

Next few times, when you are in your LGS, take a look around at the folks doing the buying.
How many of them are actually old enough to generate the financial resources they are spending?
Most of you will see that by a large margin, they are spending their parents/guardians money because they are too young to legally work.


Maybe it's a different mentality issue or something like that, but the stores I go to all have a vast majority of customers as people in their 20's and often much higher. The exception to this being of course the local GW's. I know when I started Warhammer, I was spending my parent's money. Until 16, where I started working so I could pursue the hobby like I wanted. (And not have to justify why I needed the next tank/squad for my army :).

It's not that I was disturbed by your post, but I felt that you were making too much of a small outburst from people that seemed to overreact. I really hope that DF can continue to thrive, regardless of who's buying, and that the D.O.E series goes ahead as planned. For the sake of that lady quoted earlier, who will one day realize that her role-playing/gaming might one day require, you know, a villain. And suitably impressive terrain! :P

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#7373
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
My rulings apply to all board members equally. Sarcasm is fine as long as it does not carry insult with it.

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Roger that!
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#7374
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
Moderator,

So, Just out of Curiosity, What Is The Name Change Based on?

Personally I Think that D.O.E. is More Descriptive if It is in Fact a Diablo-esque Vision... And that Dark World Kind of Implies a "Larger" Environment... I Wonder If Something More Like Gothic Realms or Similar Might Not Side Step a little of the Potential Controversy... (If there is any that is)...

Also Thank You For Stepping in on the Culture/Sociology Discussion that Was Brewing...
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#7375
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
Seriously Alkatchoff, the Gothic genre/theme is not viewed very positively in the U.S.A. these days; incidents like Columbine and Red Creek continue to destroy any acceptance by the general population of Gothic behavior, etc.

As far as gargoyles, sorry Stefan, you made some quite odd ones
My wife collects gargoyles along with dragons and other things so I am not ignorant of gargoyles before someone throws that at me.
These ones are being viewed as the "goats of Satan" by those here who specifically commenting upon them among those I have spoken to.
Even gamers I showed the promo DOE set pic to at the main local game shoppe today used the adjectives "wicked", "evil" and the like and were viewing the set as desirous in a social rebellion format, not as a villain's hideout, by the language being used by them.

No Alkatchoff, most of these particular parents do not game in the sense that we describe it, but some do with their children.
Most have their own hobbies they pursue, but are supportive of their gaming children in transportation and finances.
Granted, none of these children are playing a White Wolf game or are into any form of D&D, but they do use some Dwarven Forge terrain in their gaming.
Most of what we have here in the area are wargamers of various types; very little RPG gaming goes on here.
Most here would rather play paintball than an RPG.
One game shoppe here actually pays its bills through just their paintball equipment and supply sales; the money from gaming product is all frosting for this owner.

Seriously, you being from socially and morally liberal Canada just might not understand the moral and religious conservatives of the U.S.A. Alkatchoff.
I can see both points of view, but I understand theirs.
Theirs is not an over-reaction as you paint it, but a parental reaction.
They understand that they not only have a legal responsibility to care for their children but also a moral one given to them by God who has gifted them with their children as they see it.
Part of that responsibility they understand is to guide their children to a morally good foundation.
They see DOE, due to its "feel", to be in conflict with that understanding.
You may see that is odd, but many morally conservatives of all political and religious persuasions here in the U.S.A. are exactly that way.
I have ran into parents like this coast-to-coast so it is not just a regional few in some "backwoods" somewhere.

Moreover, gamers in Canada must be a more chronologically older group; why else would major companies like GW and WOTC market their games at such a younger age group?
Most gamers in the U.S.A., especially in non-college towns, are at the targeted age group and are supported mainly or only through parent expenditures.
In every game store I have patronized coast-to-coast I estimate there to be an average ratio of 6:1 of juvenile gamers to 18yo+ adult gamers.
The ratio is even worse when you knock out the 18yo+ casual gamers from the math.

Even the card games being played here reflect a more conservative, less dark view.
MTG does not sell all that well in this area while Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh with NeoPets are the much bigger sellers.
After that, the bestselling card games are Star Trek and Star Wars CCGs.
I personally play BT CCG, B5 CCG and then I am a sparring partner for my eldest son in Yu-Gi-Oh to help him get better.

The point I was trying to make was that DF stood out from these companies because of their product. By manufacturing an expensive array of accessories made to be used in conjunction with other games, they cater to a smaller, more hardcore audience, that of the older, more fiscally responsible. People who can afford both games AND such fine accessories to go with them.

My counterpoint here Alkatchoff is, "Can Dwarven Forge survive doing so?"
If all of the major companies in the industry are targetting the younger crowd with lower prices and are massively successful doing so, will DF survive if they do not follow suit at least in some lesser degree such as continuing the trend seen in the last five new sets?
Unfortunately for serious gamers like myself, I cannot see DF surviving staying with the old white box sets, which I personally like a lot better than the new small box sets, or with alienating significant portions of their buying public, such as morally conservative parents.
I am truly concerned about DF continuing success.
I spend money on DF and encourage others to do so, but with things like DOE, I am starting to feel that are my efforts in vain.
It is said, "A picture is worth a thousand words." and the promo pic of DOE is definitely generating many words here and they are not positive ones.
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#7376
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
Moderator,

So, Just out of Curiosity, What Is The Name Change Based on?


Frankly, I would like to know as well.
More ammunition for the case to keep Dwarven Forge alive locally.
"Prepared is well armed."

Personally I Think that D.O.E. is More Descriptive if It is in Fact a Diablo-esque Vision... And that Dark World Kind of Implies a "Larger" Environment... I Wonder If Something More Like Gothic Realms or Similar Might Not Side Step a little of the Potential Controversy... (If there is any that is)...

At least, the DOE set is controversial here and I have lived in several other areas around the U.S.A. that are just as conservative.
Goodness, I am considered a Liberal by many here, and I am not that at all.
I am not not sure if a name change would help with those I have spoken to already, but it certainly cannot hurt.
I vote for a return to "Dark World".
Like MLV says, it brings a larger environment schema to the set which with the larger feel should generate more sales.
It will be a whole lot less controversial as well - big plus.

Also Thank You For Stepping in on the Culture/Sociology Discussion that Was Brewing...

And it moved off to PMs as desired.
Hawkmoon is from Sweden and I am from the States - not much common ground there for agreement on such a topic unfortunately.
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#7377
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
I won't be saying much, but I have to make a few points:

1. Some people may want this to be "wicked" and to rebel, but that is irrelevant. The material itself is just a place, and a place for evil to live. That said, good kids will want to fight evil, and this is the location to do it.
The product is a blank slate, and has no intrinsically good or evil qualities -- it's totally going to depend on how someone uses it.

2. As someone who represents, both personally and as a member of a larger community, a more liberal perspective -- McFarlane toys, White Wolf games, and Marilyn Manson have all continued to do quite well despite hesitation shown by Walmart to stock their products. It's a big country. People who don't like the stuff don't have to buy it. But there is a market for something with a darker, more gothic edge. We don't ALL want what one community wants. I'm not saying one group is better than the other, or bigger than the other -- I'm saying the whole point of this country is to let there be VARIETY and DIVERSITY. Who says DF has to please everyone?


3. I've heard nothing specific about what the problem is supposed to BE. Why would a moral parent keep this from their children? Is there any danger here beyond a vague, ambiguous sense of something being wrong? Is there an actual, practical, fear? What would this lead to? What harm could it possibly do? How on earth could playing with Dwarven Forge terrain lead to anything other than a pasty complexion and a somewhat awkward demeanour with girls?

4. Columbine had nothing to do with goth. I've been friends with a goth community of some kind in several states for about 15 years now, and nobody even remotely connected to the community would have even dreamed of something like that. Actually, Columbine seemed to have a lot more to do with the gun community - lots of guns, readily available -- than the goth community, which as a whole tends to be gun-free. We wouldn't even know how to get our hands on one. Most goths I know would be afraid to enter a gun/pawn shop, they'd be beaten up in the parking lot.

5. Religion and morality are not identical. For that matter, morality and political perspectives (left/right) are not identical. You can be liberal, and agnostic, and STILL moral. Ultimately, a parent can be quite concerned with the moral character of their children, and still let them listen to Black Sabbath, play Doom, and enjoy a little Vampire: The Masquerade. In fact, some parents might even feel that raising healthy, open-minded, emotionally-capable-of-recognizing-when-something-is-only-a-game, children is in fact a better idea than trying to hide their children from bad influences. I know a lot of liberal, well-educated parents, who are EXTREMELY concerned with the moral development of their children -- and their values are quite different from the values of the parents RF is talking to. Their sense of what counts as moral is simply DIFFERENT - and this forum is not the place for debating which group is right.

6. This comes down to political views, liberal v. conservative, religious v. secular, and for that matter comes down to the old chestnut that D&D is somehow evil or dangerous. As such, it's a little inflammatory. Let's just say "Thank You" to RF to voicing a legitimate concern, and let the matter drop. Things are already heated in this thread, the board as a whole is still a little sensitive, and this can go NOWHERE good. We've heard why some conservative parents might object (well, at least we've heard THAT they object), and now I've said why some parents might NOT. There are two perspectives, let's not bloody each other up arguing which one is right. Not because it doesn't matter -- but because it won't help. This board doesn't exist to convert people to one particular ideology.

L
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#7378
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
Seriously Alkatchoff, the Gothic genre/theme is not viewed very positively in the U.S.A. these days; incidents like Columbine and Red Creek continue to destroy any acceptance by the general population of Gothic behavior, etc.

When's the last time you watched Nickelodeon? There are at least two childrens--yes, children's cartoons that feature at least one "Goth" each as a main character in the series. I'd say that's pretty mainstream exposure on a channel that is viewed positively by tens of thousands of parents, judging by the success of Nic's toons and retail products. In case you're wondering when the last time I watched Nic, I have a 2-year-old who watches Nic with supervision for an hour a day a couple days a week. Since I'm the one staying home with him and raising him, that supervision comes from me.

The so-called "Goth" culture here is nothing more than angry youth. That's been around for decades in this country. Goth is not new either. With the "Second British Invasion" in the 1970's, Punk and New Wave hit the U.S. like a ton of bricks and stuck like crazy around the country. Goth is just another sub-culture of punk. Problem is, the cultularly popular "Goth" movement hasn't a clue what real Goth culture was like. Did Byron and Shelley wear Aquanet, Dr. Martens and black lipstick? rofl

As far as gargoyles, sorry Stefan, you made some quite odd ones

Gargolyes by nature are quite odd. As protectors of the do-gooders and keepers-out of the not-so-do-gooders, they tend to be scary and odd looking, but you knew this already, didn't you. Why apologize to Stefan for making something in keeping with the norms of a bizarre yet fascinating art form? I'm not quite sure where you were going with this particular statement but it left me screwing up my face and thinking that it was a kind of "duh" sort of statement. Can you explain more?

Even gamers I showed the promo DOE set pic to at the main local game shoppe today used the adjectives "wicked", "evil" and the like and were viewing the set as desirous in a social rebellion format, not as a villain's hideout, by the language being used by them.

Wicked and evil have been punk/goth/alternative/out of the mainstream terms for "cool" for ages. Did you specifically ask these gamers in precisely which context they were using it? Just curious. Six of the guys that game at my FLGS alone say "Wicked" or "Evil" to describe something that is cool, be it dark 'n Goth, or Cyberpunk and sleek.

It is said, "A picture is worth a thousand words." and the promo pic of DOE is definitely generating many words here and they are not positive ones.

No offense but, that has to be one of the most ridiculous things I've read on these forums in a long time. Unless I smoked my breakfast this morning and completely misunderstood your meaning, I didn't see any negative portrayal or description of the new photo other than the one you posted. Granted you didn't come out and say it sucked but you cast a negative image around it by calling out the religious right and "moral" fiber of those-who-would-buy this type of stuff for their gamer kids. Not to mention a "quite odd" remark to Stephan for creating "quite odd" gargoyles. If you're saying that the DOE pic is generating negative words in your neck of the woods, I understand and retract the ridiculous comment above.

Personally, I could care less what parents think of the name of the new set or what it looks like. I have yet to see kids playing with DF stuff other than Tom's kids and a few other posters' kids on these forums.

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#7379
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
Well Dante, we certainly know where you stand, "Who care about kids and their parents that use MM that are different from me? I do not!".

Oh well, that is life with one of its different points of view; I sincerely hope that DF has a more forward-looking view.
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#7380
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  
Well, Rabid, thanks for your post. It proved informative, though a little disturbing as well.

Even gamers I showed the promo DOE set pic to at the main local game shoppe today used the adjectives "wicked", "evil" and the like and were viewing the set as desirous in a social rebellion format, not as a villain's hideout, by the language being used by them.

The set being named Den of Evil would kind of expect such a reaction, no? Although the social rebellion aspect has me puzzled. The pictures would seem perfect for a Vampire/renegade king/insert high class villain here kind of lair, which certainly 'belongs' very much to RPG gaming, and miniature gaming as well. Why would that be a problem?

My wife collects gargoyles along with dragons and other things so I am not ignorant of gargoyles before someone throws that at me.
These ones are being viewed as the "goats of Satan" by those here who specifically commenting upon them among those I have spoken to.


This will sound sarcastic, but gargoyles are meant to look this way. Mischievous, and in every sense of the word, 'wrong' to normal people. They were meant to remind humans of the darker aspects a life in sin, and this shows. There's a reason they adorn many churches in Europe to this day.

Seriously, you being from socially and morally liberal Canada just might not understand the moral and religious conservatives of the U.S.A. Alkatchoff.


This always comes up, no matter what discussion board I go to. It always makes me smile. I don't consider myself particularly liberal, just open-minded. :P

I can see both points of view, but I understand theirs.
Theirs is not an over-reaction as you paint it, but a parental reaction.
They understand that they not only have a legal responsibility to care for their children but also a moral one given to them by God who has gifted them with their children as they see it.
Part of that responsibility they understand is to guide their children to a morally good foundation.
They see DOE, due to its "feel", to be in conflict with that understanding.
You may see that is odd, but many morally conservatives of all political and religious persuasions here in the U.S.A. are exactly that way.
I have ran into parents like this coast-to-coast so it is not just a regional few in some "backwoods" somewhere.


Are these the same parents that allow their kids to play violent computer games, watch any movie etc...? I mean, by this logic, none of these parents would purchase any Warhammer 40K miniatures for their kids. Read the fluff! Torture, murder, idolatry and death on a huge scale are omnipresent in its fiction. Is the Den of Evil so much worse?

Even the card games being played here reflect a more conservative, less dark view.
MTG does not sell all that well in this area while Pokémon and Yu-Gi-Oh with NeoPets are the much bigger sellers.
After that, the bestselling card games are Star Trek and Star Wars CCGs.
I personally play BT CCG, B5 CCG and then I am a sparring partner for my eldest son in Yu-Gi-Oh to help him get better.


CCG's have nothing to do with this. They cater to the mainstream gaming crowd. When kids start bringing DF sets to school to DM over lunch (oh happy days!) then we'll see. Most of the best sellers are exclusively aimed at children, and present a very harmless, animated world. Parents seem to be able to accept the notion of 'cartoon fantasy' a lot easier than that portrayed in the recent Lord of the Rings, for some reason.

My counterpoint here Alkatchoff is, "Can Dwarven Forge survive doing so?"


They have to this point, and have also expanded to a sci-fi line and a soon to be D.O.E line. It seems to me like the company is growing and expanding its horizons, albeit at a slow and steady rate. I'll continue to support the product, and view D.O.E as a worthy and highly expected addition to the line.

Should RPG's return to the mainstream, then maybe DF will have to concern themselves with the views of the conservative consumer. However, I really doubt such people form a key part of the company's clientele, seeing how their views and the hobbies attached to DF can barely coexist.

L brought up a lot of good points, which I duly take notice of now.

I'll drop the matter as well, and accept the fact that to some people, such a product may be considered offensive and unappealing. To those people I say keep buying the regular sets, and let the rest of us have this great looking expansion! :lol:

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#7381
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  

I'll drop the matter as well, and accept the fact that to some people, such a product may be considered offensive and unappealing. To those people I say keep buying the regular sets, and let the rest of us have this great looking expansion! :lol:


I KNEW there was a way to say this without droning on for hours! Thanks for being more succinct than me, Alkatchoff! (BTW, one reason why I wanted to give "equal time" -- I happen to agree with you, and I'm from Boston by way of Florida -- I think the only thing Ontario does to you is make you like hockey... ;) )

L
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#7382
How is Dark World coming along? 9 Years, 3 Months ago  

I'll drop the matter as well, and accept the fact that to some people, such a product may be considered offensive and unappealing. To those people I say keep buying the regular sets, and let the rest of us have this great looking expansion! :lol:


I KNEW there was a way to say this without droning on for hours! Thanks for being more succinct than me, Alkatchoff! (BTW, one reason why I wanted to give "equal time" -- I happen to agree with you, and I'm from Boston by way of Florida -- I think the only thing Ontario does to you is make you like hockey... ;) )

L


Agreed and let us have fait in DF in that they now what they are doing.
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