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Intact vs Ruined Environments
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TOPIC: Intact vs Ruined Environments
#31670
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
This is more of a question/discussion for the DF community than for DF. (Although they are obviously welcome to jump in, I mean, come on...)

In some posts, some folks have mentioned wishing that some environments had a more ruinous appearance. Personally, I don't, but I thought I'd open the topic for discussion and ask anyone who wants to, to present their case either way. In addition, if there are ideas to make existing sets look more (or less) ruinous, this would be a good place to share them.

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I generally prefer an intact setting, for several reasons. An intact setting is more practical in terms of placing miniatures, as rubble can easily reduce floorspace. I find it easier to tell players that an intact environment is actually a ruin, than to tell them that a ruined environment is actually intact. It is much easier for modders and customizers to "distress" a piece designed to show an intact environment than to "refurbish" a piece designed to show a ruined environment. And my need for ruined environments is usually fairly specific -- I need a particular passage to have caved in, or for a particular wall to be smashed, not for the entire environment to look like it has been through the Blitz.

That said, I do realize that a ruined environment is often necessary to show some environments, such as places that have seen extensive artillery warfare, the predations of large fantasy monsters, or even the ravages of time.

But I don't think that medieval/fantasy artillery would go for total destruction -- the intent was usually to make an opening large enough to get troops through, and once that was accomplished the artillery stopped. And the victors (or subsequent generations) would frequently repair the damage. (It bugs me every time I see Helm's Deep in "The Two Towers" that there is obvious decay at what is meant to be a contemporary (if old) fortress -- maintenance and repair would have been a priority during peacetime, if nothing more than something to keep the troops garrisoning the fort occupied.)

Large fantasy monsters might tear up the entirety of a DF environment, but that would be more a result of trying to get the soft tasty morsels taking refuge inside. So I have to concede that point.

As for the ravages of time, yes, they would definitely show. But I tend to think of many fantasy environments as being relatively new, if not actually maintained on a regular basis. No one builds a ruin -- a place becomes a ruin over a long period of time. Quality construction, sealed doors, and of course magic can preserve a site of very long periods of time. (Wasn't Tut's tomb pretty much architecturally intact, most of the "mess" actually owing to the hurried return of items that had been stolen by contemporary grave-robbers?)

My old gaming group had a couple of tricks to "distress" a room. In addition to buying (or creating) and painting broken columns and the like, we would scatter extra bowties on the floor to represent trash or rubble -- random and jagged enough to look good, but flat enough to put miniatures on. For large rockfalls and cave-ins, we got some "meteorite" or "boulder" rubber balls and cut them in half -- they take up a floor tile, and they have nice color and texture. (Be careful while cutting, and leave the halves flat on a piece of carboard so that any oils from inside the rubber are absorbed before you put them on your DF tiles.) It got the point across, and spared the DF pieces from any permanent alteration.

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I have actually lobbied for a few pieces to convey damage myself, but I think that specialty pieces are the way to go. The passage end-piece that shows a cave-in is great. I could go for some FMM pieces that show a crumbling or broken wall, or a smashed door, or piles of stone that have fallen from the ceiling (kind of like the loot pile, but rock instead of coins). Fantasy Ruins might make for a neat expansion someday.

I'm glad that RotA has some distressed floors and some walls that show damage, but not enough that it isn't impossible to say that this is a contemporary environment. I do think it might be interesting to have a couple of expansions (someday), one that features existing intact pieces (and maybe a couple of new items) and one that features existing distressed pieces (and maybe a couple of new items.)

But I think it is a lot more aesthetically pleasing (and easier to play with on game night) to start with an intact environment and add things to make ruins.
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#31671
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
Well said and I generally agree: give me intact pieces and I'll "ruin" them if I like by scattering cavern rocks, bowties, or even real rocks around. Haven;t gone as far as the dremmel (yet!) but I imagine the Mad Yank might have a few words on using that tool to create more ruined looking pieces ;)
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#31672
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
Give me clean pieces and I will make my own destruction. I typically buy old grendal or aquarium pieces made from plaster put them in a bag, break them dip them ni plaster again and then paint it and call it rubble.
I also have used crumbled strofoam painted.

-Shadox
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#31673
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
Excellent post by the way. I agree with the OP. I think it is definitely easier to "put-in" my ideas of ruining, versus the terrain with ruining built in.

However, with exception, and not meaning to hi-jack this thread's point. I would like to see a door set, with about 20 doors and 10 duplicates for a rough total of 30 doors. Some of those doors could looked ruined or downright broke. Not to mention the other numerous door types mentioned in other posts...
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#31674
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
Not a hi-jack at all. Suggesting ways to get a ruinous effect without having an entire ruinous line is totally on-topic, and including broken doors in a Doors Set is a good way to do that.
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#31675
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
Did I hear my name mentioned?

Yes, I'm certainly in favor of buying/copying/otherwise creating duplicates of DF pieces to 'ruin', via Dremel or other tools. I ALSO advocate using HA or other media to create rubble piles; Jackattack's cut-up rubber balls, Harneloot's scattered bowties, and Shadox' ruined Grendel and aquarium pieces are all excellent examples of creative 'ruination', to steal a word from "Twister", the Bill Pullman/Helen Hunt movie. And Rustyblades half-demolished doors would be SWEET! (which would be easy with the old hanging-post doors; just demount the top pin)

The Dremel method is certainly another angle to work, and one which I haven't even looked at yet; I guess I haven't felt the need to have a full ruin yet. However, you've given me some ideas...

Hmmmmm.....I hear falling rocks in my future.
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#31676
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
I remember taking a hatchet to an Armorcast altar to use in their ruined cathedral. I almost cried while doing it, because it was such a beautiful sculpt.

As an old Mordheim player, I love ruins.

So I'll definitely want ruined temples, castles, buildings, you name it. But I also love intact buildings for city games. You can put the ruined pieces in the low-rent district. It's all good.

:D
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#31677
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
I just remembered rubble pieces I created our of broken Narrow passage pieces. I ordered a bunch of single pieces form around the web about 3 years ago - some came broken. It was more hassle to send them back etc so I broke off the "corners" from the T and 4-way pieces to make rubble.
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#31678
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
I like the idea of some ruined pieces as well.

I don't think an entire set for the underground environs (dungeons and caverns) is necessary. Single special pieces would make nice add-ons in "Wicked Additions" type of sets. I like, and frequently use, the cave-in piece. Maybe do a free-standing cave-in pile to insert in corridors? General rubble and detrius piles for corners and center of rooms? So what if they're tough to stand minis on ... that's the point of difficult / hazardous / impassable terrain, right?

I do see ruins as being especially useful for the above ground (MBS and ROTA) sets. Some ruined corners and straight walls would be ideal to represent a destroyed, burned-out tavern, mage's lab, archeological find, etc. OK, maybe even a full set for these environs. So those that would use it could get it.

Include things like:
Ruined walls (corners and straights)
Ruined doors
Damaged floor pieces
Rubble pieces
Destroyed furniture

I'd definitely get some sets like that ... they would just add to the flexibility of sets I already own ... and isn't that the purpose of the expansion sets ??

DF could call them "Wreck-ed Additions" ;)
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#31679
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
All

I'm in full agreement with Myrthe

Make it an extension set. A 2 inch wall with a hole in it, some rubble/rubbish pieces, some broken doors.

I did some stuff 2 (3?) years ago - the rubbish pile dedicated to a certain mad yank. And HA ruined fieldstobe mold makes doing such stuff pretty easy. And - as an idea - they allow to have an inverse broken piece which fits into the hole - you therefore could even lay it out as complete and remove it during play.

So why don't I use my dremel and HA to do it myself ??

It isn't that simple to get good broken down pieces. Especially with fieldstones. And it is a lot of work.

So while I have all the materials and means of making such stuff - I still would buy it - if available.

Just one more idea:

I have some (unfinished) second edition rubbish piles. In these I inserted some magnets (well - wasn't a great idea - didn't work well) and allow to take off the top of the pile - revealing a hole - big enoug to place a small monster (viper for example) or one of DF treasure chests or money piles.

Let the party 'search' in real - let them open the pile - and then discover themselve what they discovered. I need to check if Otherworld vermin like the tick or centipede still fit into my holes. And maybe I finish them and post some photos.

Thod
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#31680
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
Good points all, but still NOT my first choice for a new expansion set for the MM line.

PLUS - the latest newsletter hints at "rubble pieces" included for RoTA2...
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#31681
Intact vs Ruined Environments 5 Years, 7 Months ago  
I like the idea of some ruined pieces as well.

I don't think an entire set for the underground environs (dungeons and caverns) is necessary. Single special pieces would make nice add-ons in "Wicked Additions" type of sets. I like, and frequently use, the cave-in piece. Maybe do a free-standing cave-in pile to insert in corridors? General rubble and detrius piles for corners and center of rooms? So what if they're tough to stand minis on ... that's the point of difficult / hazardous / impassable terrain, right?

I do see ruins as being especially useful for the above ground (MBS and ROTA) sets. Some ruined corners and straight walls would be ideal to represent a destroyed, burned-out tavern, mage's lab, archeological find, etc. OK, maybe even a full set for these environs. So those that would use it could get it.

Include things like:
Ruined walls (corners and straights)
Ruined doors
Damaged floor pieces
Rubble pieces
Destroyed furniture

I'd definitely get some sets like that ... they would just add to the flexibility of sets I already own ... and isn't that the purpose of the expansion sets ??

DF could call them "Wreck-ed Additions" ;)

Not only could you release a simple ruinious set for the basic dungeon set, you could do one for the building set as well. I have created rubble using the bowties and painting sterofoam gray for dungeons, but it's much harder to get that feeling of an abandoned inn when using the building sets. Perhaps a haunted house set might do the trick?

Also, for clarification, I would want ruinous pieces to be free standing rubble that we could move about.
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