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Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances
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TOPIC: Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances
#14491
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
I have used the Den in every single con I have ever set up. I would love to have a line of pre-built rooms... wiz lab, bank, tavern, etc.
You seem to be missing the point pfworks.
Rooms like these have almost no crossover utility so they have no continuing way to make money for Dwarven Forge.

Would you buy more than one each of the rooms you suggested?
Maybe two?
Quite unlikely any more than two.

Additionally, how often do you use them elsewhere than at the con?
Moreover, how many cons a year do you present a Master Maze layout?

ALL of us have to remember that Dwarven Forge is an actual business, not a personal sculpting works that just a few of us have on eternal retainer.
What they make and release must be able to support the business so that they can continue making cool terrain for ALL of us.
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#14492
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
This may come as a shock to many, but I have to agree with Rabidfox on the utility of the Den.

The Ogre's Den is a beautiful piece, and I love the one I have. I love it even more because I got it for free in a promotional deal a while back. I don't know if I would have bought one otherwise.

In another thread, I talked about the idea of releasing room-themed sets that would be modular in nature. Perhaps we'll see an Ogre's Den II sometime in the future where it's made of new, individual pieces instead of one whole room.
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#14493
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
Yet, at least one company (Fenryll) does produce specific, static room sets -- and one would surmise that they do so with expectations of profit.

Stating a preference or suggestion for future products is NOT treating DF like a "personal sculpting works that just a few of us have on eternal retainer", it is merely stating a preference or suggestion. And while some forum-goers may (think they) have more knowledge of business than others, they have no business speaking on behalf of DF (who can respond directly in the forums, or indirectly in the marketplace).

If DF has a large enough customer base, then selling one or two copies of a "limited use" set to an estimated X% of us might actually be worth producing a limited run of such a set. The suggestion of pre-built rooms might not result in "themed" rooms, but might tickle thoughts of pre-built rooms based on size or shape or other criteria. And themed rooms could conceivably attract new customers who might go on to buy "classic" DF products.

Asking a fellow forum-user to "justify" a suggestion based on financial wherewithal, frequency of personal use, or any other criteria is openly insulting. And attempting to quell or quash other people's ideas is not only arrogant, it is a disservice to everyone else who enjoys this forum.
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#14494
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
Well said, Jack. I hope you didn't interpret my comments about the Den as a further quashing of your suggestions, because they were not meant that way.

I think room themed sets ARE a good idea. I'd just like to see those sets come as a collection of pieces that can be rearranged and reconfigured to serve a variety of purposes instead of a one-piece molded room.
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#14495
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
I agree completely. I'd love to see themed modular pieces. In the Fantasy forum, I have a series of posts titled "Rooms: [whatever]" about proposed sets with pieces that would convert a standard DF room to a theme room, but might not actually form a complete room by themselves. (Which means you can't just buy the theme set by itself, you have to buy (or have) more DF to make it work!)
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#14496
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
I'd have to say "no" on the Arena. Very nice, but nowhere near the utility of even the - wait for it! - Ogre's Den.

So yeah, I'd rather see more modular sets than that.
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#14497
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
I agree completely. I'd love to see themed modular pieces. In the Fantasy forum, I have a series of posts titled "Rooms: [whatever]" about proposed sets with pieces that would convert a standard DF room to a theme room, but might not actually form a complete room by themselves. (Which means you can't just buy the theme set by itself, you have to buy (or have) more DF to make it work!)
Though, if they did form rooms unto themselves, they might serve as good "starter sets" for DF newbies if the price was right. They'd get a key encounter area, with unique pieces and accessories at (we hope) an affordable price that, like that first hit of sweet, sweet crack, would lead them to more consumption in the future.
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#14498
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
Well, four corners, one door, three wall pieces, and one floor piece make a 6"x6" room, so they could easily make an entire room if they want to do so. Throw in a couple of columns for good measure. Anyone care to guesstimate what a set of eleven such pieces would go for?
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#14499
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
First folks, let me say the starter room ideas that have been banging around on this end of the thread might be really good.
jackattack, in response to your last question, presuming you meant fantasy pillars and not Sci-Fi columns, in parts you are looking at $37.15US.
My ballpark estimate would be $30US for the room like this as a marketed set.
Additionally, this estimate is for pieces currently available; not for new pieces that would require further sculpting, new master molds and additional marketing & presentation.

Now jackattack, to your OTHER posting:
Since you presented the case, let me respond to the situations and the accusations you have levied.
I do this so that you can understand and better appreciate the position that Dwarven Forge is in because they are a very small gaming company.
Dwarven Forge is most certainly not in the financial and power positions that WOTC/Hasbro, WK/Topps or GW are in to simply clarify before beginning.
Yet, at least one company (Fenryll) does produce specific, static room sets -- and one would surmise that they do so with expectations of profit.
Is not Fenryll a French company?
Does not tabletop wargaming have hundreds of years of tradition plus is relatively inexpensive which encourages gaming involvement when compared with incredibly expensive costs for cable and many other entertainments that Americans find to be quite cheap here?
I am sure that the European gamers here could add up their gaming stock and on the average have much greater percentage of their money and time invested in it that 85+% of the Americans here.
Wargaming is a way of life in Europe and is a much more popular and less odd hobby there.

Evidently jackattack, you would be amazed at the number of products in gaming that are maintained by the bigger companies in the industry simply for exposure and the hope that these "losers" will pull gamers into their truly money-making products.
GW is the perfect example:
Blood Bowl, Mighty Empires, Warmaster, Man O'War, Warhammer Quest, Talisman, Advanced HeroQuest and Mordheim among others are there to entice gamers into Warhammer Fantasy Battle &
Battlefleet Gothic, Necromunda, Space Hulk, the Wargame line(AH style games), Tyrannid Attack, Gorka Morka, Inquisitor and Epic 40K among others are to trap them into Warhammer 40K.
GW really does look down their collective noses at their peripheral("specialist" as they are now calling them) games; these games' entire purpose is to get you to play GW's main games (WFB & W40K).
How do I KNOW this?
I know this because I worked for the Evil Empire back in the mid-'90s for a while and listened to the folks, while working, here in the States, from Canada and the UK.

Stating a preference or suggestion for future products is NOT treating DF like a "personal sculpting works that just a few of us have on eternal retainer", it is merely stating a preference or suggestion.
Are you saying that no one on the forums has ever moved from making simple suggestions to making major and highly hysteric and amazingly neurotic demands on DF?

And while some forum-goers may (think they) have more knowledge of business than others, they have no business speaking on behalf of DF (who can respond directly in the forums, or indirectly in the marketplace).
And exactly who are you to determine this?
And does DF really do?
And do they need to when other of their customers, who have actually been on the "lines" like they have, can say so accurately?
Have you ever worked in the gaming industry at a company of any sort to be able to bring in knowledge from your industry experience?

If DF has a large enough customer base, then selling one or two copies of a "limited use" set to an estimated X% of us might actually be worth producing a limited run of such a set. The suggestion of pre-built rooms might not result in "themed" rooms, but might tickle thoughts of pre-built rooms based on size or shape or other criteria. And themed rooms could conceivably attract new customers who might go on to buy "classic" DF products.
Does DF have a large enough customer base?
Do they have the available base capital to go off adventuring like that?
Really, how many gamers do you know of locally or even in your own state that actually own any Master Maze?

Asking a fellow forum-user to "justify" a suggestion based on financial wherewithal, frequency of personal use, or any other criteria is openly insulting. And attempting to quell or quash other people's ideas is not only arrogant, it is a disservice to everyone else who enjoys this forum.
YC, among most of us that have been on the forums since they started (remember RF* is my second incarnation), can back me on this issue.
There have been members of these forums here who HAVE treated Dwarven Forge as their personal art servants - really.
Persons like that were the people who moved me from just reading the DF forums to posting in it.
We, those who have been here on the DF forums from the beginning or near beginning, have seen too often Dwarven Forge treated as merely artistic servants, none of us have really liked it and this spoiled demanding attitude has caused negative press as a result.
Some of these spoiled nutcases have even accused Dwarven Forge of illegal business practices when they did not produce what they demanded to be produced!
So if I or some of the other originals get a bit defensive about new ideas which are not merely put forward as cool ideas, but are from the sound, demanded, I apologize for being a bit "insulting" as you have chosen to put it, but ask you to understand where we are coming from.
New ideas are great, but the presentation can get a bit too enthusiastic at times and that has led to very sad history on these forums.

Myself, I have been in gaming over 30 years and do not want Dwarven Forge to disappear like so many other good gaming companies have done before.
I am sure all of us feel the same way.

Do you understand now jackattack?
Can we get back on to happier and more fun matters of discussion?
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Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#14500
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
Tone and tenor of posts are starting to get personal. If it goes into a flame war I would hope an admin nukes this thread.

Getting back to the room sets ideas. That also may be an excellent idea! I tend to use DF stuff now for making outdoor buildings on occasion. These "specialty" rooms would be excellent for this type of thing.

However, I have found out that a room is simply walls with a door. Its the stuff inside the room that makes it a room. Grendel interiors, older armorcast items, dollhouse furniture, etc. I do not know how many of you know of mega-miniatures but they produce some rather nice, cheap interior pieces to decorate a room and make it a wizards lab and so on (as well as some much needed but oftend ignored mini's such as sheep, snakes, as well as units of 24 town folk, village guard and so on for abotu $20.00). They even have pneguins coming out in AUgust- how can you go wrong!

www.megaminis.com/
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#14501
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
Tone and tenor of posts are starting to get personal. If it goes into a flame war I would hope an admin nukes this thread.
What I am looking for here Blackhawk1 is for some here of like mindset to understand the Dwarven Forge situation better so that they can express their cool ideas in a fashion so that we as a community forum never have a return to the mapmaker and other like fiascos of the past.
I am not asking of them to change their core characters or even get lost; I am just asking them to understand the business that supports our fun and that new ideas are great and should be expressed here, but that they really need to couched in a fashion that is not demanding.
Plus, that new ideas and demands for old product need to take into account that Dwarven Forge is a small company without the assets of the larger members of the industry.
Nothing more complicated than that.

***only an example******only an example******only an example***
I want more Fantasy Narrows and could while disregarding Dwarven Forge's situation shoot my mouth off, demanding that they re-release the set despite what hardship it may put the company into and claim that since they never offically discontinued the product that they are being unfair and dishonest with the Dwarven Forge customers for not acting on the situation like I want them.
***only an example******only an example******only an example***
That's really stupidly sounding, is it not folks?
That is what we have had to contend with here in the past though, possibly before a good number of you were here with the rest of us.
The early members can all verify that.
It is what some have gotten awfully close to on more than one occasion in 2006, and something that most of us really never want to happen again as it did in 2005.

Again, no one, not even me, wants to quell cool new ideas.
It would be nice to just have them put forwarded less demandingly and without the strident tone that some hope will be disguised as enthusiasm.

Getting back to the room sets ideas. That also may be an excellent idea! I tend to use DF stuff now for making outdoor buildings on occasion. These "specialty" rooms would be excellent for this type of thing.
The other thread agreed on this as long as the room was modular and could be used for other matters.
Any fixed sculpting was not really encouraged.

And you are very correct in saying that Master Maze can be used as outdoor buildings.
Many of us Sci-Fi gamers almost use our Master Maze exclusively as such, both for interior gaming which it was designed for, and for exterior gaming which is a serendiptious feature.

However, I have found out that a room is simply walls with a door. Its the stuff inside the room that makes it a room. Grendel interiors, older armorcast items, dollhouse furniture, etc. I do not know how many of you know of mega-miniatures but they produce some rather nice, cheap interior pieces to decorate a room and make it a wizards lab and so on (as well as some much needed but oftend ignored mini's such as sheep, snakes, as well as units of 24 town folk, village guard and so on for abotu $20.00). They even have pneguins coming out in AUgust- how can you go wrong!
This is why serveral of is have repeatedly asked for some serious science fiction interiors.
Out and about, there are not a lot of Sci-Fi interiors whether in resin/metal or in downloadable paper files.
There are far more Fantasy furnishings available out there than Sci-Fi.
Dwarven Forge would have a receptive market to new Sci-Fi interiors beyond those of us who already use Sci-Fi Master Maze.
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#14502
Dwarven Forge Arena Set and Technological Advances 8 Years, 5 Months ago  
RabidFox*

1. Don't tell me what I would be amazed by. In fact, stop trying to tell anyone anything about themselves. Unless we actually tell you, you don't know how we use our DF products, how often we use them, where we use them, why we use them, or anything else about us or our gaming habits.

2. Unless you have access to DF's books or are sitting in on their meetings, you cannot and should not speak for them. I've seen small companies take serious financial hits because someone who didn't know what he was talking about shot off his mouth as if he were a company insider, and the wrong people (competitors, press, distributors, etc.) overheard and took speculation as fact. You are not an employee or representative of the company, so do not presume to speak on their behalf in any matter.

3. Amazing word, "if". It opens up a world of possibilities, and inherently includes the realm of impossibility. I may not have figures on DF's customer base, or the number of sets those customers are likely to buy, but neither do you. I am confident in DF's ability to check those numbers and make wise business decisions. You seem to think that Stefan et al will listen to the last and loudest voices they hear.

4. If and when someone starts making demands for a new or old set, or starts making wild accusations, or goes seriously outside the parameters of DF's (potential) product lines, then by all means take them to task. But no one in THIS thread said anything stronger than "I would love to have" -- hardly a demand, nor a call to arms. I'm sorry you've had bad experiences with posters in the past, but YOU are now the most strident voice on the forum! You do not discuss, you dictate. You are in danger of replacing the posters you despise as the forum bully.

5. Your opinion is NOT more valid than anyone else's. I don't care how many years you've gamed, what companies you've worked for, how long you've been on this or any other forum, how many historical sites you've explored in Europe (I bet you never saw a dragon or a giant spider in one, either), how much you've spent on DF products, or what people "agreed to" in another thread at any point in the past -- you are not the final (or any other) authority here! That, sir, would be Stefan Pokorny. You also don't get to dictate terms on who gets to make what suggestions, nor the background requirements to join in discussions or post topics -- this forum has moderators, and you are not they.

I know people who have gamed for twenty or twenty-five years who still cannot grasp the most basic of game mechanics, and I know people who have gamed for only a few years who can actually write systems that make more sense than many rules sets that are prominent in the market. And the thing is, sometimes the most hopeless gamer can say "wouldn't it be neat if" and get the design wonks working on something that never occurred to them, which greatly improves the game. Good ideas can come from anyone. (I refer you to a single mother in England who had never written a book before, who wote a story with the seemingly ridiculous premise that there is a boarding school for children who can do magic -- thank goodness her publisher didn't require her to be "of like mindset to understand the business" before looking over her submission.)

Sometimes, good ideas actually come from explaining why a bad idea won't work. Sometimes, good ideas are ideas that USED to be bad, but are no longer subject to factors that made them bad ideas. Discussion is good. Ideas are valuable. Bogging forum-users down in business plans (which Stefan and crew are completely capable of taking care of themselves), nitpicking about "historical accuracy", and bringing in your own personal baggage is bad.

Do you understand now RabidFox*?
Can we get back on to happier and more fun matters of discussion?

6. Don't condescend to me. You don't have room.
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