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A little early... feedback on Hellscape
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TOPIC: A little early... feedback on Hellscape
#36208
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
Personally I would much rather see a Cavern ABS and Wicked Additions sets that contain some aspects of this in addition to rounding out the cavern series. I just don't think the cavern sets (and with the river/water setbacks) have been supported enough.

Maybe some lava tubes, or a few pieces with lava/recently cooled lava (like the reddish/black hardening Blob color) that could work as transitional components to Hellscape or could stand alone as another cool cavern piece for those who don't have the sets. These could be part of a Wicked Addition Cavern set. So pieces with water, and maybe hardening lava or traces of lava would be cool and work in a universal generic fashion.

Since Caverns have the most potential generic use in RPGs and can be used more than the standard Dungeon walls I think we need some Cavern ABS and Wicked Additions action in the works.


Just my humble opinion of course.
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#36209
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
I couldn't agree more. Been waiting a long time for some kind of Cavern WA/ABS. Producing one with one or a few transition pieces that worked with the HS set would be a bonus.
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#36210
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
Personally I would much rather see a Cavern ABS and Wicked Additions sets that contain some aspects of this in addition to rounding out the cavern series. I just don't think the cavern sets (and with the river/water setbacks) have been supported enough.

Maybe some lava tubes, or a few pieces with lava/recently cooled lava (like the reddish/black hardening Blob color) that could work as transitional components to Hellscape or could stand alone as another cool cavern piece for those who don't have the sets. These could be part of a Wicked Addition Cavern set. So pieces with water, and maybe hardening lava or traces of lava would be cool and work in a universal generic fashion.

Since Caverns have the most potential generic use in RPGs and can be used more than the standard Dungeon walls I think we need some Cavern ABS and Wicked Additions action in the works.


Just my humble opinion of course.

Out of curiosity what would you like to see in a ABS for Caverns? I know the Chasm set has the pieces that can be added to the corners cavern pieces. Granted I would LOVE to see single straight river pieces available but...that might not happen unless the straight lake banks sold out.

I heard a rumor that the Lake and River sets would be available in the new year from Stephan at Gencon. Of course the present sets that just got restocked would have to do well. Which I think from looking at the sales the Hellscape is doing pretty well. Well at least the single floor pieces and I am sure come Oct 31st more of those actual sets well sale quickly.

Perhaps some more "odd" or rather different type of pieces...waterfall wall/floor piece, single floor piece with a "hole", not sure beyond that. I am sure there are some great ideas out there but can not think of any real pieces that are missing from the line right at the moment.

I am sure you have some better ideas than I do and would love to hear them....

Sean
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#36211
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
These are great ideas folks...keep em coming as we are in the conceptual stage for the next Hellscape...I will definitely include a floor piece that has no Lava and a floor piece that is something of a Lake, and also a different curved corner...I think some sort of Lava fall is also an obviously great idea....I'll wait a few weeks for more suggestions so that everyone can fiddle around with set ups for a while...
OOooh! Nice to get definite confirmation that another set is planned. (For some reason I recall reading that this set would be the very last DoE set released, and there wouldn't be any more)

One thing I've noticed from looking at the pics -- and thinking of the layouts I'd want to do -- is the serious lack of straight wall pieces. The entire set doesn't come with a single straight wall piece, just the free-standing wall, and just one of those. Here's why that's a problem:

1. Free-standing walls are great, and flexible, but for ease of set-up and take-apart, having a "fixed" straight wall would be great.
2. The current selection makes it seem like you get two floor pieces in a set, but you really only get one -- if you plan to use that free-standing wall to get your wall element. Points for modularity and freedom of choice, but points lost for making us sacrifice one valuable element to get another. Especially given the high quantity of corner elements, why make us pick between a floor and a wall?
3. Even if nothing else is a problem, we still only get one straight wall in this set - if we don't mind it being a free-standing wall, if we don't mind giving up a floor piece for it, that's still FIVE corner pieces and only one straight wall. Even with only one set, that's a severe imbalance -- for people with three or four or five sets, it's going to be almost absurd. WAY too many corners and not NEARLY enough straight walls.

The next set should absolutely have a straight wall piece, preferably fixed. If not that, at least sell the free-standing wall as a single so that it can be joined with the single floor pieces for sale.

Just my $.02....

L
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#36212
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
Yah. Fixed Straight Wall. Definitely needed. The "straight waved wall" is just not it, it wastes so much floorspace with the reverse-side scoop of the line of the wall.
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#36213
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
These are great ideas folks...keep em coming as we are in the conceptual stage for the next Hellscape...I will definitely include a floor piece that has no Lava and a floor piece that is something of a Lake, and also a different curved corner...I think some sort of Lava fall is also an obviously great idea....I'll wait a few weeks for more suggestions so that everyone can fiddle around with set ups for a while...
OOooh! Nice to get definite confirmation that another set is planned. (For some reason I recall reading that this set would be the very last DoE set released, and there wouldn't be any more)

One thing I've noticed from looking at the pics -- and thinking of the layouts I'd want to do -- is the serious lack of straight wall pieces. The entire set doesn't come with a single straight wall piece, just the free-standing wall, and just one of those. Here's why that's a problem:

1. Free-standing walls are great, and flexible, but for ease of set-up and take-apart, having a "fixed" straight wall would be great.
2. The current selection makes it seem like you get two floor pieces in a set, but you really only get one -- if you plan to use that free-standing wall to get your wall element. Points for modularity and freedom of choice, but points lost for making us sacrifice one valuable element to get another. Especially given the high quantity of corner elements, why make us pick between a floor and a wall?
3. Even if nothing else is a problem, we still only get one straight wall in this set - if we don't mind it being a free-standing wall, if we don't mind giving up a floor piece for it, that's still FIVE corner pieces and only one straight wall. Even with only one set, that's a severe imbalance -- for people with three or four or five sets, it's going to be almost absurd. WAY too many corners and not NEARLY enough straight walls.

The next set should absolutely have a straight wall piece, preferably fixed. If not that, at least sell the free-standing wall as a single so that it can be joined with the single floor pieces for sale.

Just my $.02....

L

I am by no means an expert but a volcanic area to me would seem to have a straight wall. Of course I could be wrong but that is how my take on it. I agree for game purposes a straight wall would be great but I would think irregular walls or an area shaped like the inside of a bubble would be the norm for this type of landscape.

Am I off on my thought process?

Sean
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#36214
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
Out of curiosity what would you like to see in a ABS for Caverns? I know the Chasm set has the pieces that can be added to the corners cavern pieces. Granted I would LOVE to see single straight river pieces available but...that might not happen unless the straight lake banks sold out.

I heard a rumor that the Lake and River sets would be available in the new year from Stephan at Gencon. Of course the present sets that just got restocked would have to do well. Which I think from looking at the sales the Hellscape is doing pretty well. Well at least the single floor pieces and I am sure come Oct 31st more of those actual sets well sale quickly.

Perhaps some more "odd" or rather different type of pieces...waterfall wall/floor piece, single floor piece with a "hole", not sure beyond that. I am sure there are some great ideas out there but can not think of any real pieces that are missing from the line right at the moment.

I am sure you have some better ideas than I do and would love to hear them....

Sean

Well for starters plenty of different sizes in freestanding walls.
There are some great ones in the river set but that is currently on hiatus do to qc issues with the water for the pieces.

So some large freestanding walls, some small 10ft pieces, 5ft pieces, some large and small corner wall pieces - maybe some straight or curved walls with both small (5ft) and large (10ft) openings. Similar to the opening in the corner conversion piece in the cavern set, but in freestanding straight or curved cavern walls.

Also it would be nice to get some 4x4 pieces with a slight slope/grape to one side and another piece that would be one tile size higher in scale to match up. So in that way small grades can be created without actually making steps by laying DF tiles over DF tiles. The large single piece would be pretty think or heavy so the cost may make it prohibitive - so maybe just use a 4x4 tile with something underneath that could make it match up seamlessly, but the slope/grade built midway into a tile would great to represent a rising cavern floor (or descending) smoothly. I hate using a 4x4 tile piece buried under another piece since I consider that such a waste, but again cost needs to be a consideration -maybe some foam?
To me creating the single tile, be it 2x2 or 4x4 (or both) with a slight slope/grade in the middle is the most important thing. It should be able to match up with a doubled standard DF floor tile in height.

The facing edge of the slope tile could have some rough rock edge detail (ala the beautiful work done on the DoE floor tiles) so if there is no adjoining piece it would still be functional as a stand alone. Something at a height of maybe half the size of your average adventuring mini used to represent a PC. So you could use say one 4x4 gradient piece (with some freestanding 10ft length walls to make it say a 20x20 cavern passage) as a rising slope, have a double thickness plateau piece (or just the standard 4x4 cavern floor piece with something underneath to bring it up to level) and the same rising slope piece on the opposite side. Or not, you could keep the cavern or passage at the new level or raise it or bring it down.
Using slope pieces for a smoother transition.

Also just as the standard ABS - several smaller loose tiles, joining pieces, irregular floor pieces.
Waterfalls are a great idea, maybe some sinkholes.

Sorry, when I think of underdark I think of Descent series of modules. These are the kind of pieces which are missing.

Also the cavernous passage set could use with more of the winding (but fundamentally straight) 6 long passages, that or it should be a separate item for purchase. With the standard 3 set purchase that only leaves you with 3 6'long passages. Even the ABS comes with x3 6'long corridors. I would like a set that caters to the basics of cavern dungeon builds. Since cost is an issue for single pieces then load three in a set as was done with the ABS 1.

Sorry for the ramble.
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#36215
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
I'd say just take the mold for the great ramp from the Traps 1 set and "cavern-ize" it. This can be a great transition piece ramping up out of a cavernous/lake area to an opening "off screen" that affords a great field of view, and cover. They could place end-wise to a wall for an exit, parallel to follow the walls, or sit in the middle somewhere with an exit in the ceiling, and that is all before getting into full-bore stacking and tiering for multi-level layouts!

And of course , to keep it on topic for this thread....a cavern-ized hellscape version as well. You DO usually have to go "down" into such a volcanic chamber/room whatever.
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#36216
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
Well, I have my set. I'm sure I'll have more to add later, but here's my reaction to the set initially....

The pieces are beautifully painted.. the yellow is REALLY bright, so the lava looks glowing hot. The streams coming down the walls look fantastic. The cracks look fantastic. It ALL looks fantastic.

The giant volcano piece is a great centerpiece for the set, too. A real nice touch.

I do have one negative response, which I feared might happen -- there really are too many corners in the set. There are FIVE corners, two straight walls, and two floors (one of which can become a straight wall). That doesn't allow you to complete a chamber. That alone is a problem. What makes it worse is how quickly it would be compounded by buying multiple sets. The asymmetry would just get more and more noticeable, and you'd end up with a pile of corner pieces you rarely have a use for.

One way to fix it, of course, would be to include those handy "floor filler" pieces in Hellscape II, like the diagonal floors or, more accurately, the little behind-the-cavernous-corner pieces from the Chasm set. Those would make it possible to use Hellscape corners within a setup, instead of just on the outside.

I realize, of course, that the corner pieces can be used to create a kind of undulating outside wall, but that is less effective in small layouts -- if you only have a small amount of room, that makes the entire layout just comprised of corners, and it doesn't look as good.

So, yeah, other than the piece distribution, another home run from DF...

L
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#36217
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
By my reckoning, if you want to make a single chamber with all of the pieces in one set, you come up 2 floor tiles shy.

If you want to make a single chamber with all of the pieces in two sets, you come up 4-6 floor tiles shy.

If you want to make a single chamber with all of the pieces in three sets NOT INCLUDING the odd corner conversions, you come up 27 floor tiles shy.

However, floor tiles are available separately, and we don't know what futures HS sets will bring. If HS2 is mostly floor tiles with a couple of alternate walls and corners, then the ratio of walls to floor might correct itself.

And if all else fails, plunk down McFarlane's dragon-rising-out-of-lava in the middle of the chamber to cover up the lack of floor tiles. When the players ask where the dragon's treasure is, invite them to jump into the lava and look for it.
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#36218
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
Wow, thanks for doing the math! I think that bears out my point pretty darn well....

On the plus side, a few positive remarks that I can add:

The mix of matte and gloss paint is really effective. The lava streams are done in a really shiny gloss paint, it gives them a slick appearance that contrasts well with the matte finish on the ashen rock. Together with the color contrast, it makes for a very pronounced final effect.

Also, I really, REALLY am impressed by the four little "overflow" pieces. At first I didn't really have an opinion on them, they weren't my favorite pieces. But I found myself unbagging all four really quickly and finding a use for them.

This hit home when I started thinking abuot what I'd like to see in HS2. First, I thought I'd ask for some elaborate DoE conversion piece -- and then I realized how limiting that would be, and how much more flexibility Stefan has given us by including these pieces. Now you can make your own transition pieces with ANY DF environment. That's really, really cool!

In fact, it's so cool that I'm still going to ask for a conversion piece in HS2, only I want it to be a larger, slightly more elaborate version of these little rock things. Maybe, if possible, even something that includes the lava "stream" element that every piece has in the center -- ideally, an actual lava overflow itself, done in glossy yellow and orange, to suggest the molten rock itself is flowing onto some other DF surface. (the basic mechanics of it would essentially copy the classic "fake vomit" gag -- a thin clear roughly disc-shaped bit that lays flat to look like pooling liquid -- only done in resin, not rubber, and flowing out of some ashen rock so the blend looks complete).

Another piece I'd love to see in HS2 -- a large rock like the massive 4x4 raised rock in the Chasm set. I know there's already been talk about how much or whether to copy the Chasm ideas for HS, but I want to make a special case for that piece. The HS environment really seems like it should involve a high-level bad guy (like Jeff's story did!) and those kinda foes really like to posture. And proper threatening posturing and intimidation techniques REQUIRE that the foe appear on top of some raised dais-type of surface. He/she's got to look DOWN on our heroes. It's in the bylaws! So I'm officially petitioning for something along those lines for HS2.

L
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#36219
A little early... feedback on Hellscape 5 Years ago  
Oops, my mistake...

Edit: As Stefan points out below, these figures (and those above) are based on all pieces being used to create a single, large, open chamber. Any other configuration will require fewer floor pieces.

Two sets using all pieces come up 9 floor tiles short.

Add the corner conversions with three sets, and you'll come up 38 floor tiles short.

Really not trying to be a jerk, it just kind of works out that way...
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