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Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE
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TOPIC: Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE
#10398
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Thanks for the sample, very nice Xmas gift, it almost looks like a soarse of water with it kinda seaping down from the water buckets.... My thougts ehoe the idea that I am sure most of us would prefer these be unlimited but I know that you have to do what you need to do. I think it sad we can't ship overseas cheaper. USA needs more exports " even if it were made in another contry. Could it possibly be shipped directly from china? Just a thought.
whitewind
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#10399
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Jeff,

Would it be possible to set up a distributor in Europe who would be able to sell your products to Europeans at the same price that your US/Canadian customers pay? Your previous arrangements in the UK with Gargoyle Games and Esdevium Games meant that we could get our hands on your products, but we still had to pay a high price as distributors and retailers took their cut. Now your product is difficult to get, and when we can order stock it costs us twice the US$ price thanks to the high shipping costs and the attentions of the taxman!

I paid over $200 for my $99 Den of Evil set, and would happily have ordered 2 or 3 sets if I could have got them for $99 each. The same will happen with future releases in 2006.

I am convinced that you could significantly expand your business in Europe if you could solve the distribution problem. You'll double your European sales if you can find a way of selling product to Europeans at the same price paid by Americans.
otherworld
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#10400
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Doing this limited edition thing allows use to release more (and better!) sets -- and that should make most people happy. Without the Den of Evil in 2005, DF would be scrapping by to launch one set in 2006. It makes that big a difference with our cash flow.
so what you're basically telling us is that dwarven forge will be riding a bubble, a limited edition bubble? what happens when you release a set that no one wants? i'm not trying to bag on dwarven forge, i love the product and want to see it around, but really, i think a little more market research is in order.

den of evil was a "shot in the arm" for fantasy, something that says "here you go, we haven't forgotten about you." limited edition or not, in my opinion, dwarven forge made money off of it because it is new, dfferent, and virtually one of the only things available. like many others, i don't care about limited, i care about consistantly being able to get what i want.

in the last month i've purchased $1000 (retail value) worth of fantasy master maze and caverns sets, all of which had been sitting on shelves for years. i paid significantly less because i offered to buy up a whole store's stock. unfortunately, dwarven forge -4 years ago- saw and spent the profit from the sets i just bought. even more unfortunate is the fact that i've got a "want list" that's as big as my "have list" and i'll buy it when i can, i'm not going to sit and wait for a restock.

i wish it was an option to order direct from china instead of waiting for (the ever fabled) shipping container to arrive. honestly, i'd happily pay for shipping if it meant i could get what i want.
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#10401
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Jeff,

Long-time buyer, long-time annoyance here (yes I am, let's be honest about it!).
You need to define EXACTLY which lines are going to a LE structure, and what will be 'core' sets in those lines. Otherwise, we're going to be tied up in this thread for the next twenty YEARS with people worrying about 'will I be able to get (blank) lines forever, or are they going away?'.
It's a shame DF has to take this route to stay solvent. I understand the criteria that led to this decision, I just wish it hadn't become necessary. Is there any way, short of finding a corporate buyout or doubling(or WORSE) prices, to avoid the Limited Edition lifejacket?
Oh well; you must do what you must to survive; the business jungle mandates that law, I know it wasn't your idea.
Those of us who are honest DF fans will support you; all of us as long as we reasonably can, and some of us even beyond that! The casual hangers-on will drop off by the wayside, and new loyalists will accrete. It's kinda like a crystaline growth cycle.

Have a Happy and PROFITABLE Holiday Season!
PLEASE!!

Jim Kratzer
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#10402
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
I am still undecided on this, while i am a BIG supporter of the pre-sales becuase it gives the company the $ it needs to produce the sets, the limited edition notion does have me a bit worried, but i am trying not to jump to conclusions before i know all of the facts on the matter.

Me like many who have "collected"/bought these wonderfull products we all seem to know to get really fun, really amazing layouts we need to have a lot of material. What scares me is what could be the fall out from the limited editon nature. I have purchased about 8 of each of the base Sci Fi sets, and 3-4 Alpha, and i want a few more of both the Alpha and wouldn't mind maybe another 2 each of the basic sets. But Cash flow for me, as well as DF, is an issue. When i can buy an addition i tend to do it.

I purchased two DoE for me to play with and have used them, and enjoy them, i know to get some big set ups though i will want another one, most likely two at some point, i am hoping to get an influx of cash soon, but it may not pan out, and for me Beta will be the next purchase over another DoE if it comes to making a choice, but it will be a hard choice to make in the future depending on the sets.

That is the rub of the LE/collection status, while sure it may be around for a year or more, i personally don't have the cash to make lots of big purchases at once. I want two more DoE, but for the near future i can't do it, and i don't want to have to make choices with the sets i want to buy, feeling preasured by a collector mentality.

The limited edition nature might force choices of noy buying anything in a new set becuase i can't get enough to do much with it... but we don't have the facts on it yet.
It may come down to what turns out being Limited. If there are sets like Ogers Den, Wizards Tower, Occult Study, Inn/Tavern etc i don't think i will have a problem with it, these are things i don't forsee me needing to get 10 of, 1 or 2 for the goodies, and to have them but not 10, becuase they are "not necessery bulk" items, they are the cool add ons that ad the flavor wow factor to a set up, but aren't a must have 20 copies of them.

My guess is it is something closer to that, becuase some items seem to be "core", the ones you need lots of. But a limited edtion, or maybe more aptly "set run", can work. Take the Mermaid fountain, for this it seems not too bad an example, are most likely never going to need more than 4, even the posts i have seen where people seem to want another, it is one more, not 6... The Goblin/demon arch the same thing, and i can think of some things in the Sci-Fi line as well that would be like this, where there are items that you may want a number of but, you are never most likely ever going to need the numbers that you would need for a core product.

The Core buyers could supply enough money with pre-orders to get the product made, and not wipe out the stock to allow them to have some for future customers. And people may find it more palatiaple if it is not so much labaled as "collector" as "limited". It has a run, and won't be made again, once it sells out it, say 2 years after that it could get rotated back in, with a market decision by DF.

For us fans I think it should be taken more as Set production runs instead of "collectors editions", for me it gives a different connetation.
Ghenghis Ska
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
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#10403
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
We did decide one important thing about the set -- and most future releases. This set will be a limited edition set as well -- just like the Den of Evil. Why, you ask? Good question.

Over the last year Dwarven Forge has changed -- along with the gaming market. We have quit the 3-tier system and we have gone direct-mail/convention sales. The traditional gaming market is also shrinking/changing dramatically as it re-defines itself in the rapid-changing world of gamers.

We have also shifted our "self-image" from that of a game accessory company to that of a company that provides cool collectibles for gamers. We have ramped up the quality of our latest sets, and by introducing the limited-edtion characteristic we have rewarded our collectors with sets that will retain or increase value. We will keep the core sets unlimited, but most new sets will only be available for a certain time -- and only to those who follow and collector our stuff. Personally, I think it is just plain cooler to own limited-edition sets -- and know that I have a piece of something that is special and cool in the gamer world.

Although I understand the logistical reasoning for this, -(limiting overhead etc) might I suggest that DF resist the temptation to actually place a number/limit to the two new Cavern sets in developmwnt (at least until the pre-order sales are complete). There are three reasons that I make this point:

First: Any Cavern sets seem to have a wide and universal appeal and thus, the new sets should appeal to all DF collectors (old and new, SF and MM). And should sell well and consistantly.

Secondly: The value that I, (personally) place on my DF collection has nothing to do with rarity, but out of the sheer enjoyment that I, (and friends) get out of using DF. In fact, if I knew that such an important set was no longer available at all I would enjoy it less - being too protective and paranoid of losing or damaging it.

My third point: (New sales - driven by collectors); At the present time I am the only one in my group collecting DF, - I will not speak for friends directly, but that may not always be the case. One thing I do know...as impressive as my (showcase) collection is quickly becoming there little chance that any of my friends (mostly competitive =) )would actually start collecting DF themselves if such impressive sets (as the Cavern River and Lake sets) were not available to them as well.

All I'm saying is pleeeeeeeeease do not place specific (and presumably binding) limits on these incredible sets too quickly, - if at all.

(Added note: In my humble opinion, these two new Caverns sets should be considered core sets - as they are essential sets). I totally understand if other sets become limited editions as required.

Thanks
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#10404
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Core to me is three genres:
Fantasy
Cavern
Sci-Fi

Any set directly within those three genres that has a decent utility factor (ogre's den as example of limited utility) should not be limited edition Jeff.
LE has earned DF money - great!
Taking a good thing too far causes illness and death.
Making a Cavern set into an outright LE set I honestly feel is a very LARGE mistake.
In actuality Jeff, many of the non-LE sets are in fact limited availability anyway at this time due to insufficient funds to do a product-line-wide re-stock.
Making a Cavern set into an LE issue will not help DF in the long run.

You and Stefan had a end-of-the-year meeting, right?
You made goals for 2006, right?
Did you also set goals for 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2015, 2020, right?
The next five years along with the ten year and fifteen year points, right Jeff?
So, where is DF headed?
If you did do this style of plan this will make it possible for Stefan to sculpt ahead for those things he can do as the muse strikes him, and you two can plan to outsource what Stefan feels he cannot do.

You two decided on the following sets for 2006:
Sci-Fi Beta, Cavernous Rivers, Cavernous Lakes, ??????, and Den of Evil (Wicked Additions).
Where is the Sci-Fi Master Maze Furnishings set aka Gamma in this 2006 plan Jeff?
Caverns are great and have wide utility Jeff, but a serious SF MM furnishing set really DESPERATELY needs to be released so as to maintain what you have said is a core line for Dwarven Forge.
With how the gaming market IS changing and how variable it is as you have posted on the DF forum, a lack of releases can be viewed as a lack in support and commitment by the manufacturer (DF) which can cause a lack in sales.
Sci-Fi Master Maze is a year behind in releases currently and with only Beta TBR in 2006, that will mean it will continue a year behind and that is not great news.

Please re-examine 2006 as to Sci-Fi Master Maze and its releases Stefan and Jeff.
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#10405
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
My opinion is also against limited editions. I didn't mind the Den of Evil being limited edition too much because it was outside the core DF genres. Will having limited edition sets stop me from buying from those new sets? Probably not. But I might be more cautious and buy less if I'm afraid that the utitlity of the set will later be limited because I'll need more of the product and it will be out of stock. I wouldn't mind so much if it was a limited run, with the option that DF might re-release the set later if there is high demand. I ended up buying three Den of Evil sets because of the limited edition nature, because I was afraid later on I would need more pieces to do something and it wouldn't be unavailable. Yes, in the short run that made DF a little more money, but it left me feeling somewhat frustrated because I don't really need 3 sets right now, only 2. If I had this feeling of frustration and "wasting" money on extra sets from limited edition product "just in case I need it later" it would turn me off to new product. However, I do want DF to be profitable so it can survive and keep putting out new product. So if this is the only business model that works for DF, so be it.
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#10406
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Wow...thanks for the passionate feedback on the idea of going limited edition on future sets. I would have written a much more thorough explanation had I thought it would generate this much interest. My apologies for a poor detailing.

There is no way we can keep every set in stock -- especially as we ramp up our releases over the next few years. As it stands now, when a set goes out of stock we don't have any clear-cut idea of whether or not a set will EVER get back in stock (thus going out of print). A lot depends on total sales and future products. We STILL don't know if the Wicked Additions or the Advanced Builder Set will ever get back in stock -- we have to wait to see how sales go on the Cavernous River and Walls Set.

So...ask yourself this question. Would you rather have a clear cut idea if and when a set is going out of print -- or would you rather we have the answer always murky as it is now? I get dozens of emails every week asking about when a particular set will get back in stock, and I can only tell them "maybe this and maybe that".

Also, keep in mind that as we release all these news cool sets, we have less money to restock the old ones. We cannot keep coming out with new sets -- and keep the old ones in stock also. Something has to give as our resources are limited. If you love the fact that we are now going to produce all these cool new sets, then you have to accept the fact that older sets must go by the wayside to pay for them.

By going with the limited edition idea, we know exactly when sets are going out of print AND we can inform our collectors when the inventory is getting low on a certain set. It will keep our product line fresh and exciting, and it will force us to constantly improve our sets. Our intention is not to "force" anyone to buy more sets than they need or want -- our intention is to be more forthright with our stocking levels so that the murky restocking question is negated.

Core Sets: Even though sales of these sets are pretty low, we feel they should stay in stock to help the new collectors we attract every year. We hope to always have the following sets in stock:

Room and Passage Set (in stock)
Deluxe Room Set (hopefully April)
Fantasy Starter Set (hopefully April)
Wicked Additions I (hopefully April)
Wicked Additions II (hopefully April)
Cavern Set (coming Feb. 2006)

That is all we can afford to keep in stock and still be able to produce 3-4 sets a year. The Advanced Builder Set is on the bubble, and I doubt if any of the other fantasy sets will ever be produced again. We will also keep in stock a limited number of individial pieces (like the 6" Long Passage) as well as perhaps the Furniture/Accessories/Magic Item flocked sets.

The whole Sci-Fi line is in limbo as we speak -- with a lot being determined on how well the Sci-Fi Beta set sells. It will be our first direct-to-customer Sci-Fi set, and we are hoping it will perform well enough to keep the line viable. I am optimistic -- but we will have to wait and see before we develop a Sci-Fi accessories set. (Okay, Rabid Fox...let me have it!) We can't afford to gamble on a new set without seeing how the Beta goes. We should know something by the end of Origins. If sales go well for the Beta, we will keep all those sets in stock for the foreseeable future AND develop a new one in late 2006 or early 2007.

To sum up...basically...whether we like it or not ALL our sets are somewhat limited editions, as we cannot keep all our sets in stock forever. We have to have a system in place to retire old sets, and I think a more organized and forthright system (limited edition) is a better way to go than our current system of "maybe this and maybe that".

Now...that being said...perhaps with the Cavernous River and Walls Set we can raise the number of produced sets from 1,500 to 2,500 to give us a 1-2 year sales window. I will confirm this with Stefan. (BTW, I expect all the Den of Evil Room and Passage Sets to be produced and sold by the end of the year 2006. That is about a one year sales window.)

Thanks again for your input, and I appreciate the chance to better explain some of the reasoning behind this decision. Also, I would like to apologize for the original. slip-shod explanation.
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#10407
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Wow, thanks again for the news, " always appreciated ". I have to admit when I herd that the Cavernous River was going to be LE it was a slight shock, I mean if any set would stand the set of time and sell along side it's sire " Cavern and Passage " it WOULD be this set. Still, if you need to do this fine we have to evolve along with you. Nothing as they say is ideal but this way we would have sets and not nothing new, " or old ". The news about Sci-Fi disturbs me the most here. I can't say that I thought it was flourishing " what with the 50% sale and all " but I have jumped into this line with all thrusters!! I will have to buy up a few Betas so I can support this line in the best way I know " BUY IT "....! I am sure you don't need me to say it but I will anyway. HANG IN THERE!!!!!!!! You have families and lives so do what you must, we will do what we can. " That may involve a thorough chewing out by the more knowledgeable of us "...
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#10408
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Jeff, thanks for the detailed resonse to our feedback. My opinion still stands. I understand you can't keep many sets in stock, only a few core ones and a few new ones. That sounds perfectly good to me and I like very much that it will allow you to produce new and different sets (especially since I've already pretty much stocked up on your current sets).

Even so, I'd rather you don't destroy the molds and leave open the chance for you to reissue a set three or six years later if demand warrants it. I for one don't intend to resell my Dwarven Forge product for a profit, so the "collectible" issue is not relevant to me. Perhaps it is to other customers. If the cost of storing the molds is too great, or if other customers with a different mindset about collectibility of limited edition products will help your sales, then I understand why you will have to go that route.

Whatever you decide on this point, I still value your company and what you produce, and I'm very excited about the new sets for 2006. I'd prefer if the sets were not guaranteed "limited edition" with molds destroyed and such, but sometimes I can't get what I want. Still, that is my feedback to you on this point.
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#10409
Cavernous River and Walls Set UPDATE 8 Years, 8 Months ago  
Okay Jeff,

Here's MY suggestions on Stock levels, Core Sets, etc.
CORE SETS:
Fantasy-
1. Fantasy Starter
2. Deluxe Room (you can swap in Standard Room if necessary for production cost reasons)
3. Room & Passage
Sci-Fi-
1. Sci-Fi Starter
2. Sci-Fi Passages
3. Sci-Fi Alpha
Caverns-
1. Cavern Set
2. Cavernous Passages

LIMITED RUN SETS:
Fantasy-
1. Narrow Passages
2. IF Room set goes CORE, then Deluxe Room
3. WA #1
4. Traps #1
Sci-Fi
1. Sci-Fi Beta (AFTER Initial Run!)
2. Sci-Fi Gamma (same as Beta)
Caverns-
1. Cavernous River & Walls (AFTER Initial Run)
2. Cavernous Lake (Same as River/Walls)

LIMITED EDITION SETS:
1. Den of Evil
2. DoE WA
3. Fantasy Floors
4. WA #2
5. Traps #2
6. Advanced Builders Set
7. 15 Short Passages

DELETED SETS:
ALL MINIS
ALL ACCESSORIES
OCTAGONAL ROOM
OGRE'S DEN

Now to the Stocking and Production schema.
Core Sets are ALWAYS kept in stock - rent a USAF C-5 Galaxy if necessary to get them restocked!
Limited Run Sets are re-stocked ONCE a Year - suggested either Christmas season or in time for GenCon/Origins - whichever will generate the most sales.
Limited Edition Sets are a ONE-TIME run. Period. If you insist on having it, search eBay or find a current gamer and beat it out of him - IF you're bad enough!:rolleyes:
Deleted Sets Adios, muchachas; been nice playing with ya.

IF DF ever gets rich enough to afford it, then go ahead and restart a line if it was a popular one, but ONLY as a Limited Edition run.

I know this sounds somewhat Draconian, but if we're going to keep DF around to keep us happy, then DF has to make a profit. On the other hand, if you can't keep us at least a LITTLE happy, you won't sell anything, and DF will disappear. I think this business plan will strike a safe balance between the two extremes.

Tell me what you think, Jeff (and everyone else, 'cuz I KNOW you're going to, also!).


Jim Kratzer
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