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The HOBBIT is COMING!!
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TOPIC: The HOBBIT is COMING!!
#27248
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
The Silmarillion is great backstory. It's been ages since I read it, and have the urge to start whole Tolkien cycle all over again (if I can find the time!).
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#27249
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
My mistake. The Dunedain showed up immediately after Helm's Deep, not right before.

As for why the elf army didn't escort the Company, the original intent was for the entire Company to enter Mordor by stealth, not to split up and have most of them end up in Rohan.

A few different elves in the original trilogy were combined into Arwen's role. It makes for fewer introductions and eliminates a certain amount of confusion for the uninitiated. It also significantly strengthens her story in films that are sorely lacking in good roles for women.

Substitutions in dialog. Have you read Tolkien lately?
"'True indeed!' said Gandalf. 'And there is one among them that might have been foaled in the morning of the world. The horses of the Nine cannot vie with him; tireless, swift as the flowing wind. Shadowfax they called him. By day his coat glistens like silver; and by night it is like a shade, and he passes unseen. Light is his footfall! Never before had any man mounted him, but I took him and I tamed him, and so speedily he bore me that I reached the Shire when Frodo was on the Barrow-downs, though I set out from Rohan only when he set out from Hobbiton.'"
Tolkien was writing dialog in his own fantasy-medieval dialect, which at times reads like a cross between Shakespeare and the Bible. Good reading, bad movie. I'm good with most of the dialog changes.

I'm even okay with a lot of the "new" material, as it is designed to evoke and accomplish in shorter form what Tolkien did over many pages and through lots of dialog or reference to backstory that needed to be cut for whatever reason. I'm not overly thrilled with the drinking contest, but it did shorthand the bonding between the elf and the dwarf.

And if anything, the AT-ATs were probably inspired by the Oliphants, not the other way around. Tolkien wrote LotR while George Lucas was still in short pants. Lucas based the AT-AT movement on video of elephants walking, which makes the AT-AT, at its most basic, a giant elephant -- which is exactly what Tolkien put on paper so many years before. It's nice to draw parallels between different works, but try to keep the history (or at least the order the source material was created) straight.
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#27250
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
Ah, ok - so you see his writing as something that would not survive actually being spoken out loud and thats where we differ.

I find his use of language beautiful and think it would have MADE the films, not taken away from them.
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#27251
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
Jack,

I'd have to do the research, but I do not recall any Dunedain showing up at Helms Deep. The Dunedain showed up at Minas Tirith, IIRC.

Yes, AT-AT Walkers were patterened on elephants. Oliphants weren't 100 feet tall in the books nor was the combat scene by Tolkein anything like a landspeeder using a cord to topple an AT-AT (such as what Jackson portrayed).

As for the elf army, IIR, it was a troop from Rivendell led by Haldir (Lorien scout). Some feat he did getting through Moria, to Rivendell and back to Helms Deep in the same time the party got there.

My comments about Arwen was to point out that Jackson took obscure things in the main text (Arwen) and made them center stage.

Nope, haven't read LOTR lately, however, there were many instances of wording changes that work both in writing and spoken and would have helped keep true to the roots.

Stuff like the following made me scratch my head as to why change it?

Movie: "I am no man!"

Book: "No man am I!"
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#27252
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
I corrected myself about the Dunedain. They showed up on the journey to Minas Tirith, before the Paths of the Dead.

Tolkien is vague on the actual size of Oliphants. Sam's doggerel has them "as big as a house". (This is a little odd, given that most hobbits live at least partially underground, and not terribly descriptive given that Sam works at Bag End, which is very large in terms of floor plan but only about six feet tall at the ceiling.) Later, Sam perceives them to be the size of a hill, although his perception might be magnified by awe. (Again, not terribly clear -- are we talking about a bump in the ground that children might play "King of the Hill" on, or are we talking about the sub-mountains you might find in the English countryside?)

No, nobody toppled an Oliphant with a landspeeder in Tolkien. Nor did they ride beneath them and cut their legs, nor did they spear the man at the reins and drive one into another, nor anything else. Tolkien stated that the only way to kill them was to shoot them in the eye, which Jackson (who has a background in horror and gore) felt would make the good guys seem cruel. He likewise made them huge to emphasize their role as a threat to life and limb -- these are monsters turned into war platforms, not cute animals being abused by nasty people.

"I bring word from Elrond of Rivendell." Haldir never said the archers came from Rivendell; he probably used Elrond's name because Elrond was the elf-lord that humans were used to dealing with (he called the Council, and Gondor sent someone). As for the feat of getting to Helm's Deep at the same time as the party, the party could only travel as fast as its slowest member (Gimli), while elves run like the wind without tiring (and I'm not convinced that they sleep).

My point about Arwen is that Jackson worked hard to keep obscure things in the main text in the movie, and did so by integrating them into a single character who might otherwise have been lost on the screen.

"No main am I!" ("Like Yoda I speak, and tremble before me you will!") If you are going to change large sections of dialect to plainer speech, you need to change all of it for consistency's sake. And as lyrical as the prose might be, it is much less accessible by people who don't read fantasy fiction -- and there are a lot more of them than there are of us. There are sections of Tolkien's dialog that very smart people have to read twice (the first time, anyway) to parse out the grammar (that man loved commas more some men love their children). That's fine when you are reading, because you can go back a sentence or a paragraph, you can read at your own pace. A movie moves at a set pace, and if anyone gets left behind because they are busy trying to figure out what was just said, then the movie maker has failed. Jackson didn't make this movie just for Tolkien fans, he made it for everybody who loves the novels AND for everyone who hasn't had the chance to love them yet.

Was it perfect? No. It can't be. Everyone has different tastes, even among those who love the novels. I, for example, think Samwise is the best character in the novels, and has the best journey and the most character development. I sorely miss the scene where the Ring tempts Sam with visions of glory and grandeur, and Sam resists. Sam is one of exactly two mortals who willingly gave up the Ring, and that makes him mighty indeed, but Jackson just kind of skimmed past that. However, I realize that not everyone agrees -- lots of people consider Sam to be a buffoon. I also realize that to keep the movie going, and to keep focus on Frodo's struggle with the Ring, that scene needed to be eliminated. Still, the overall result was brilliant, and I'm not willing to condemn the entire thing over personal preferences, isolated scenes, and small details.
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#27253
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
Think of the movies that have been done of Shakespeare's work that used the dialogue from his plays exactly as he wrote it. Then think what those movies would have been like with the language dumbed down....
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#27254
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
Sam's description was a literature exaggeration based upon Sam's awe. In any event, I don't know of too many 10 story houses in Middle Earth.

The Dead Men of Dunharrow (in the book) were not akin to all powerful beings. Their "attack" was fear (like ghosts), not life sucking vampires in the movie. Jackson's adaptation made them a deus ex machina device that didn't work at all for me. I am really surprised that he did this with the Dead Men of Dunharrow given his hatred to them.

Little details were missed throughout, such as the dead king missing the "Until the time comes. " in his speech... something that would have been understood by a 5th grader and not added 7 hours of length to the movie.

While some folks would have loved the movie even if Jackson added gatling guns and lightsabers, but many like myself just scratched our heads as Jackson either missed or ignored so many of the finer details.

Hopefully the Hobbit movie(s) will capture more of those details and preserve more of Tolkien's language.
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#27255
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
While some folks would have loved the movie even if Jackson added gatling guns and lightsabers, but many like myself just scratched our heads as Jackson either missed or ignored so many of the finer details.
Exactly.
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#27256
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
Where exactly do the Dead Men of Dunharrow suck the life out of anything like vampires in the movie? How were they not a deus ex machina in the novels?

Why is the use of modern English "dumbing down"?

And reductio ad absurdum neither diminishes my viewpoint nor strengthens yours.
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#27257
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
Its dumbing down for three reasons:

1 - An author writes something beautiful and truly epic.....and YOU decide to change it??????????????????????!

1 - it doesn't sound nearly as poetic....in fact it sounds in many places quite plebeian and stupid.

2. - you need to be a less educated/lower IQ/less well read person to not be able to understand and make sense of Tolkien's original dialogue
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#27258
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
Jackattack - have you actually READ Tolien's words recently???

Maybe its me?, but I have a hard time believing anyone who has read the actual words printed in the book and then compared them to the words in the movie can find either praise for Peter Jackson or (shudder) fault with Tolkien's writing...

The books are a marvel of Literature and mythology.

The movies are, at best, entertainment.
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#27259
The HOBBIT is COMING!! 6 Years, 9 Months ago  
For me anyway the change in """ I will tell you the tale of tuniviel "" was very well done. I was ready for him to go on and on for a few pages but glad he did not. She Died...
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