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New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly)
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TOPIC: New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly)
#59444
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
I've bought plaster pieces before. They arrived already broken, and they didn't break clean. Never again.
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#59446
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
While I cannot vouch for them as I haven't seen their product; the person behind it is an engineer, and they have all of the professional equipment (vibration tables and vacuum chambers to get rid of bubbles, etc.) that other makers besides DF most likely don't have.

I'd assume they are being made correctly with all of the background knowledge, but again, I can't definitely say for sure as I'm not over in Halifax. :)

This isn't the cheap hydrostone crap that's on 99% of the Hirst Arts ebay auctions.
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#59448
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
A resistance of 18 000 psi is good! It means that this material can resist to a very high compression force. If you know anything about physics though, a compression force is not the same as a shock. If you drop plaster on the floor, whatever the type of plaster (with a fancy name or not: Merlin, Excalibur, Hydrostone, Hydrocal, dental plaster...) or whatever its psi compression strength, it will break, period! Resin, on the other end, has some flexibility and will have a slightly higher chance of surviving a fall.

In any case, I outlined the material being used for this kickstarter because all that was mentioned at the beginning of this KS was that the material used was "Excalibur", a type of "die stone". Most layman might not realize that this material is (a very hard) plaster and I thought it is an important thing to know before committing to buy these pieces. For the record, I own many Hirst Arts plaster pieces and I like them.
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#59449
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Forgive my ignorance, but how does Dwarven Forge's old polystone material compare?
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#59450
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Polystone is a resin. It probably has a lower compression strength but in my opinion, it's relative flexibility makes it less likely to break than any type of plaster. In any case, the real factor that increases possibility of damage to pieces if they fall down is their weight. A single DF resin piece weighs about 45 grams which is not much. Hirst Arts pieces are most often glued together to build big wall sections or buildings. If you drop those, there's about 100% of chance of breaking something.
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#59455
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
It looks as if you can get the tiles cast in clear or colored resin at $40k. Not bad for ice.
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#59457
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
Some of those bar accessories are pretty cool, particularly the stairs. @bio wizard that rope bridge is awesome
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#59461
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
biowizard wrote:
Polystone is a resin. It probably has a lower compression strength but in my opinion, it's relative flexibility makes it less likely to break than any type of plaster. In any case, the real factor that increases possibility of damage to pieces if they fall down is their weight. A single DF resin piece weighs about 45 grams which is not much. Hirst Arts pieces are most often glued together to build big wall sections or buildings. If you drop those, there's about 100% of chance of breaking something.


Compressive strength is PRECISELY the measurement of deformity under pressure. There's no difference between hitting something with a hammer or dropping something onto one, provided the force is equal. Tensile strength is the ability to pull something apart - the direct opposite of compressive strength, and that's what many resins are measured in.

You talk about Hirst Arts stuff as if you have some knowledge in the materials and assembly, but I can tell that you have very little from what you're saying. I've made HA stuff from Smoothcast 300 and other resins as well as from hydrocal and Excalibur. There's a sea of difference between the mediums.

Hydrocal is probably what you're thinking of, and yes, it's brittle and weak, and prone to breakage. Excalibur, however, is ultra-dense, strong, and very chip and break resistant. If models made of Excalibur break, they don't break across the material, they break across the glue lines.

I've pinned my models, which creates a much stronger bond, and I've dropped them on tile, carpet, and on laminate floor. The only thing that ever broke was a Sci Fi building, on the laminate floor, and it chipped rather than broke.

It's all about how you build the stuff and what you assemble it with. A strong epoxy with high bonding and strong shear is what I use most of the time now, and I have yet to have a piece damaged.

But back to materials, resin is, in fact, brittle, and Polystone is even more brittle. These materials chip and crack faster than Excalibur. If you were to make a 5" cube of all three materials and drop them on their corners, the Polystone would chip first, then the resin, then the Excalibur.

Polystone is the best material for things like Dwarven Forge primarily because it allows for very fine details (again, due to the stiffness, NOT flexibility). If flexibility were a good thing for casting, everyone would use PVC.
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5x Dwarvenite KS1 + 1x CoS + 1x Dungeon Dressing
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#59462
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
I just took another look at their kickstarter and here is what the project creator had to say in the comments section and even they are not making it out to be more durable than resin DF.

Creator Iron Ring Games about 17 hours ago

@Kenton Watson.
The two are different mediums, and I do not believe that DF has posted any strength values for their Dwarvenite. I believe it is a rubber / plastic, and is obviously quite resilient.
Prior to their Kickstarter, I believe it was mostly resin and polystone, of which Excalibur is a fairly good strength comparison.

A better comparison would be to that of Dungeonstone. They use a resin and carbon infused, diestone composite rated at 17 ksi. The Excalibur die stone we are using is rated at 18 ksi, and we use vibrating and vacuum equipment for the molding process to ensure quality.

Our product isn't indestructible. It is however made from the very top of the line stone. We have been using this material for quite some time, our pieces have survived being packed up and transported hundreds of times, years of game use, and we have been doing commissions for years with very minimal issues.

We suggest that you treat your stuff reasonably. You don't need to wrap everything in bubble wrap, but you should at least stack things nicely in a box for transportation.
Don't hit your stuff with hammers please.

I store my personal walls and tiles flat stacked in boxes, I store my accessories loose in a box, and I store some of the less robust pieces like rope bridges in some light foam. We use a double coat of varnish sealer on our paint jobs, if you paint it yourself, either protect your paintjob, or store it appropriately.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

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#59463
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
I guess it should also be said that the pieces in the Labyrinths kickstarter aren't glued, pinned, etc. Each are one solid cast piece. (The exception being some of the detail options, like mushrooms, water, etc.) I've seen some hirst arts sets on ebay where stuff like rock piles or walls are glued together; these aren't like that. The pieces have been assembled, and then had molds made of the finished product design so there are no glued portions in the end product as the mold is for the finished product, not idividual "blocks." The walls aren't attached either, which depending on your preferences could be a good or bad thing.
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#59468
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
superflytnt,

I love and respect this forum. It is a friendly place where people can discuss and provide arguments without personal attacks. I don't understand how I offended you by telling that plaster, even a super-strength plaster such as Excalibur, can break after a shock. It was an advice from an experienced Dungeon decor user that could potentially be helping fellow dungeon decorists. It has nothing to do with you and it is my personal opinion. You are of course in your right to have a different opinion and to provide your own arguments. Nevertheless, you wrote a few things in your latest posts that I believe are wrong, some of which concern me specifically. I therefore feel obligated to respond to a few of them.

superflytnt wrote:
Compressive strength is PRECISELY the measurement of deformity under pressure. There's no difference between hitting something with a hammer or dropping something onto one, provided the force is equal. Tensile strength is the ability to pull something apart - the direct opposite of compressive strength, and that's what many resins are measured in.

I'm not an engineer but I'm a research scientist. I just finished my “research” on the matter and I asked my civil engineer friend to double-check my thinking and I believe you are wrong. The properties of a material to break upon impact depend on many factors: compressive strength, tensile strength, elasticity, weight density and shape. The compressive strength of a material is measured by putting the material between two pistons (one on each side) that press against it with increasing pressure until the material breaks. The tensile strength is measured by doing the opposite measure while pulling apart the material until it breaks. When you hit an object with a hammer, or drop it on the floor, the object is being applied pressure on only 1 side at once. This is not a compressive force. It is a mix of compressive and tensile force: compressive on the side of impact and tensile on the other side. A good example for this is a Kung-fu master hitting a piece of wood. It will break on the other side of impact as the wood fails its tensile strength and not on the side of impact as it resisted the compression. This is why civil engineer reinforces horizontal concrete beams holding heavy weights by running steel cables only in their bottom sections. Plasters have a tensile strength that is about 10 times lesser than their compressive strength. You can apply 18 000 pounds of pressure on a 1”*1” (as per the definition of psi) Excalibur piece laying flat on a solid surface and it won’t crumble. Hit the same piece with the same force while it is not supported and it will break. Another example is ceramic. This material has a super high compressive strength, yet it will break easily upon impact.

You talk about Hirst Arts stuff as if you have some knowledge in the materials and assembly, but I can tell that you have very little from what you're saying.


This is the personal attack. I’ve been a customer of Bruce for the last 7 years. I made many HA projects using plaster of Paris, Hydrocal and Hydrostone. I never used Excalibur as it was too expensive for my needs but I can understand that it can be 80% stronger than hydrostone (18 000 psi compressive strength for Excalibur as opposed to 10 000 psi for Hydrostone). I once owned 15 molds at once until I sold them when I had enough casts. I made myself a vibrating table and used the fancy vacuum chambers that I had access to at my workplace. My first DF forum post ever was my project of making roofs for DF buildings using HA (link). I have not posted my other projects here as they were not related to DF.

But back to materials, resin is, in fact, brittle, and Polystone is even more brittle.

Polystone IS a resin. I have therefore a hard time understanding why you say a resin is more brittle than a resin.

These materials chip and crack faster than Excalibur. If you were to make a 5" cube of all three materials and drop them on their corners, the Polystone would chip first, then the resin, then the Excalibur.

Well, for such a shape you are probably right that Excalibur would hold better than resin. For thinner pieces, such as those shingles for making rope bridges that I saw many people in this thread being enthusiastic about (without even knowing that the casting material was plaster until I mentioned it), I disagree. The best example I have for that comes from Bruce Hirst himself that recommends to use resin instead of plaster for one of his recent creation, the gothic graveyard (link).


Finally, I have absolutely nothing about HA pieces. If you’re a dungeon decorist that wants to use HA pieces, buying material from this kickstarter is probably the most durable option for you. Be advised to be careful with whatever you build! This is especially important for thin pieces and for very bulk and heavy structures.

p.s. You can read Thod’s (owner of DF Europe) experience with broken HA towers:
www.dwarvenforge.com/forum?func=view&catid=10&id=46824#46833
www.dwarvenforge.com/forum?func=view&id=48157&catid=508#48157
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#59470
Re:New Kickstarter with Caverns (Not DF, sadly) 11 Months, 2 Weeks ago  
I had written a long response to it, Biowizard, and I'd mention that I was a working PE/ME for several years doing QA testing of this same nature, but at this point I'm just going to shake my head and walk away. You lost me with the Kung Fu Master bit.

Look up Izod impact testing. The factor being tested is in-plane and out-of-plane shear in some cases (depending on what you want to test), but at the end of the day, if this were a simple drop/impact test, it is ABSOLUTELY compressive strength that protects against shock. Ductility protects against fatigue, but compressive strength is what it primarily tested in drop tests.

www.astm.org/Standards/D7137.htm

Again, this doesn't have anything to do with anything, other than the fact that you made factually inaccurate statements that were misleading and I was attempting to correct that. Polystone 500 and other materials have a compressive strength of 6,000 PSI (www.boedeker.com/polystonepmg.htm) but the DF stuff is carbon-loaded so it's likely closer to 16-1K PSI. So it's equivalent. I'd argue that the Excalibur is equally durable EXCEPT at the glue lines (I think I said that) if no pinning or mechanical strength is added via assembly means.


At the end of the day, if you say, " If you know anything about physics though, a compression force is not the same as a shock" you should really know what you're talking about - you presented yourself as "in the know".

For example - when doing standard ASM compression testing, you don't use two pistons, you use one piston and one fixed surface. Pretty much all ASM shock testing is using one fixed platen and one moving (hammer drop/Charpy...) rather than two, which you said, and which was incorrect. Shock, by definition, is compression of external and internal surfaces. A shock wave is, by definition, a compressive wave. See what I mean?

All I'm saying is that you may be an incredible research scientist, but talk about what you know, not what you don't, as an expert. No offense intended in the slightest, by the way; I'm simply attempting to correct the record.
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5x Dwarvenite KS1 + 1x CoS + 1x Dungeon Dressing
1x Rooms and Passages
1x Traps I
1x Den of Evil Expansion
1x Ice Cavern
1x Wicked Additions II
+ Various individual pieces
 
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