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WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
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TOPIC: WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT
#33741
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
While I was never a big pirate in my college days I had a few coppied programs etc. , I changed my tune drastically when it hit home to me when the work i had done for the last few Years of my life was going to be stolen.

I now resepct the IP of others within fair Use, and respect the IP holders right to defend it. And since it's thier IP if they don't want to sell it throguh PDFs, that's their choice and to be honest it doesn't really affect me one way or the other as i like a real book. But I have to wonder really how big the sale of PDFs is versus books, I Still prefer a good book to a PDF.

We are playing Heroes System purchased the PDF for it (sidekick) as it was a cheaper purchase ($5 versus i think 30ish for the PDF of a game we were trying), and printed it out as i prefer a physical thing to read.
As it is I'm Looking for the 5th ed core rule book still, becuase i don't like to borrow the GM's and purchased the setting at a recent Con. We have some in the group who pulled it off line instead of buying it. If they want to steal that's up to them, but i'm not going to.
I see no problems with WotC or anyone else trying to protect thier property, and they do lose a lot of $ off the piracey issue. So i see no fault, or relations issues with anything they do, as what they are trying to so is a wrong practice and if they want to go after people for doing it, and making it at all tougher for them (stoping the easy transfer by getting rid of the premade pdf, and aking some one take the time to scan it, fine by me (as it will be very hard to stop as people are generally freeloaders) and, more power to them.

But as Harneloot mentioned will this just get rolled into Insider so you can still acces the content, like Dragon etc? And from the little i know about insider, Isn't the bulk of the info from the books in there already (ie all the crunch you need, yeah fluff isn't there, but the character builder in Insider has the crunch of the powers etc) so do they need to sell PDFs through Insider when you just have the info on site in the builder?

Outright Stealing is Not fair use, and it's wrong so i won't allow it in my game, others can do what they want. I actually don't consider it a public relations mess with music etc,and i hate the "punishing the consumer" argument as as long as they sell the product in some form (CD, Book) they aren't punishing the consumer, they are just say this is what we sell, if you want to buy it fine, if not fine. They only punish if they stop selling or making it all together. And i find the people who tend to complain the most (not saying you) about how they are hurting the consumer are the ones who do a decent amount of stealing.

I know someone who got worried about the TONS of stuff he downloaded, and stopped doing it becuase he was worried about getting caught. ,But it boggled me to see him on the one hand telling his kids it's wrong to steal yet he was doing it at the same time day in and day out.
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#33742
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
For the very first time I actually thought about looking into the pathfinder system. Should I move on then this would really have been a dump move. I own probably 20+ 3rd edition books from WoTC and I'm a customer who still can afford to buy stuff.

Thod

Its actually really good stuff. You should definitely check it out!
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#33743
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
Outright Stealing is Not fair use, and it's wrong so i won't allow it in my game, others can do what they want. I actually don't consider it a public relations mess with music etc,and i hate the "punishing the consumer" argument as as long as they sell the product in some form (CD, Book) they aren't punishing the consumer, they are just say this is what we sell, if you want to buy it fine, if not fine. They only punish if they stop selling or making it all together.
Ghengis Ska

But this is exactly what they did !! I didn't buy the third edition as pdf - I prefer books. What I did buy is an out-of-print Module - the Temple of Elemental Evil. The biggest outcry is by people who wanted to buy out-of-print stuff - which have been saving for it - have been planning to buy the stuff eventually - and now there is no way at all to buy the stuff legally anymore.

I was contemplating to buy some more classics. Not sure if I ever would play them - just for a read maybe.

I haven't heard anyone complaining that they can't get the 4e Player Handbook 2 anymore (this was the reason cited by WoTC) - what people complain about is First and Second edition stuff - rare stuff, Planescape, Dark Sun etc.

So the issue is - no - you can't buy the stuff anywhere at all. Unless you are willing to shell out a fortune on E-Bay. No - I'm not paying some $50 or more for a module just because it is a collector item. Paying $6 for a legal pdf instead - fine with me. But this is no longer an option.

Thod
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#33744
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
Outright Stealing is Not fair use, and it's wrong so i won't allow it in my game, others can do what they want. I actually don't consider it a public relations mess with music etc,and i hate the "punishing the consumer" argument as as long as they sell the product in some form (CD, Book) they aren't punishing the consumer, they are just say this is what we sell, if you want to buy it fine, if not fine. They only punish if they stop selling or making it all together.
Ghengis Ska

But this is exactly what they did !! I didn't buy the third edition as pdf - I prefer books. What I did buy is an out-of-print Module - the Temple of Elemental Evil. The biggest outcry is by people who wanted to buy out-of-print stuff - which have been saving for it - have been planning to buy the stuff eventually - and now there is no way at all to buy the stuff legally anymore.

I was contemplating to buy some more classics. Not sure if I ever would play them - just for a read maybe.

I haven't heard anyone complaining that they can't get the 4e Player Handbook 2 anymore (this was the reason cited by WoTC) - what people complain about is First and Second edition stuff - rare stuff, Planescape, Dark Sun etc.

So the issue is - no - you can't buy the stuff anywhere at all. Unless you are willing to shell out a fortune on E-Bay. No - I'm not paying some $50 or more for a module just because it is a collector item. Paying $6 for a legal pdf instead - fine with me. But this is no longer an option.

Thod

I'm afraid that we have our civil legal system and "zero tolerance" policies to blame for this. Lawyers don't understand the difference. They are suing 8 folks for IP theft. I'm sure they don't want to muddy the waters by having some of their products for sale, and some not. They'd have to go back and edit copyright notices on everything and stuff like that. So it's easier that way. As much as I like the PDF's, I can't blame them much for this.

It reminds me a little of trying to get old software for an Atari or something. I can't download it and I can't buy it.
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#33745
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
Maybe this is just an excuse for WOTC to set up their own on-line pdf store through D&DI and force people to subscribe to even be able to buy anything?
Not likely unless they wanted to control *only* the sale and distribution of electronic versions of their materials. And since there's such a risk of piracy with PDFs (as has been alleged) , that makes this theory even less feasible.

PDFs are nice and convenient but they're simply not good products to sell. Way too easy to attach to an email, stick on a thumb drive, etc. etc. etc. Even if they encoded them with access pass codes crackers would have a tool out within 24 hours to break the access codes (this has already been proven with Sony/Sonic Foundry's software "Sound Forge"--within 24 hours of a new release, a crack is distributed in the alternets).

Man, I don't know what to think about this. I like PDFs and I always make a backup copy of my electronic files, so I wonder if we're going to see a whole new round of "fair use" mucking about as a result of these lawsuits.
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#33746
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
The advent of epaper will solve this in my opinion. The cat is out of the bag. Just like the IPOD solved music download problems (I know that it still exists ) by making it an affordable system and easy to use. It became easier to use an IPOD then steal. Right now Kindle and sony readers are the only epaper systems. Neither one is perfect and they are expensive with limited material. As they take off and other companies, (Read Apple) look into making an epaper device true security will be there. I for one am looking forward to having 50-100 of my favorite books on one device, all my gaming books, and any new material that I want to purchase. I would like to be able to purchase it real time from teh device. I also would like to have my newspaper delivered via the device and maybe magazines also. I would guess 2-4 years we will be there. We need to recover from the recession and then have another tech boom. In my opinion the device has to be in teh 150-250 range and have all said features. Making college text books availble will also help. These devices provide a capture security device similar to ipod. They work well require little power.

-Shadox
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#33747
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
Sorry if this is threadjacking or turning in the opposite direction of the original post, but I wanted to respond to your post, Shadox. Having worked in the high-tech industry for the past 15+ years, I think the idea of readily available eDocs is great, yet time and time again studies continue to show a painstakingly slow adaption rate. Five years ago speculators were saying, "People will stop buying books with the introduction of eBooks" and it still hasn't take as firm a foothold as it should.

The number one reason consistently reported as to why a larger number of people haven't warmed up to electronic books is the tactile factor: people simply love to hold books (or magazines, or newspapers) in their hands and have them or within reach if they want to peruse the material within.

It's mind boggling, if you think about the potential longevity of electronic materials compared to the fragility of printed ones, that there is a massive segment of folks who would rather have that dog-eared copy of their favorite book than to have it preserved almost indefinitely in electronic format.

When you talk about devices like the Kindle you narrow the scope of the adaption rate to a much younger crowd who are already used to more portable devices and would have a natural tendency to try and/or adapt to eBooks. Even with the sight impaired, Kindle has only 26,000 some odd books available compared to the number of audio books available (which number somewhere over 220,000 at present). Even with a speedy recovery from our economic recession, the acceptance rate of eBooks would most likely still continue at a turtle's pace.

I think the tech and security is already there--it's the slow adapters that are keeping it from booming.

BTW--I just got Grimm's Fairy Tales for my Crackberry. It's great to have something to read instantly (wherever I go) when I'm stuck waiting for an appointment!
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#33748
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
IMHO: ebooks will only really take off if:
- the readers become really affordable
- there are lots of non-protected books so you're not forced to rebuy stuff when moving to another computer. or even worse, the vendor decides to shut down the license server
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#33749
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
Books appeal not only to readers, but to publishers. PDFs and other e-formats allow for instantaneous, even mass, reproduction, and the pirated product is indistinguishable from the original. While photocopiers and scanners are capable of reproducing printed materials, they are not capable of reproducing them in the same format as the original -- a pile of 8.5x11 paper, as opposed to a book with a cover.

Come to think of it, books also advertise themselves by virtue of their covers. It is easy to discern what someone is reading by simply getting a look at the cover; if you see lots of people reading the same book, you will probably think it is worth picking up. E-books don't have that kind of self-promotion as the cover is not displayed -- when you see someone with an e-book, you will only know that they are reading, not what they are reading.

And the general perception -- whether true or not -- is that books are permanent and e-docs are not. Despite vulnerability to decay, water and insect damage, and simple loss, there are pieces of papyrus thousands of years old on display in museums, there are used books stores in most towns, and rare books bring high prices from collectors. E-docs haven't been around long enough to be considered permanent by most people, and everyone has lost files to viruses or worms or system crashes or even a series of bad mouse clicks; even CDs aren't permanent, due to breakage or scratching.

There is also a size issue relating to graphics. While most text can be displayed on a e-book without much problem, images from oversize books (especially coffee-table and children's books) will be greatly reduced in size, and some images (especially artwork and wide-angle photographs) really need to be viewed in a large format.

Another appeal of books over e-docs is the ability to lend, borrow, trade, and sell. When you buy a book, you have a durable material good that you can hold in your hand and display on your bookshelf. When you lend/borrow (or buy/sell) one, there is no copyright concern because the book itself changes hands and only one person can use it at a time -- an e-doc is more often copied to the recipient by e-mail, rather than being transferred entirely from one drive to another.

I think an e-book that opens like a book and has two screens would be a terrific format. If the "page controls" were put at the outside upper corners of the two pages, and there were a graphic and audio accompaniment to "turning" pages, it would ease the psychological transition for us old fogies. Alternately, five or ten sheets of actual electronic paper that displayed the text and allowed the reader to physically turn pages might be more reader-friendly as well. (And it would be really cool if the front of the device displayed the currently loaded book cover while it was closed.)

As for copyright protection, I think they need to come up with a new file format and a new storage medium. A unique chip with a unique file format for a unique port exclusive to e-books might go a long way to solving the copyright problems (like cartridges for console games), although it would still rely on physical distribution networks. (Don't worry about only being able to store more than one book at a time -- there is not reason that the interface device couldn't hold a dozen or more chips at the same time.)
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#33750
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
I think the tech and security is already there
The tech and security is the problem. I own my books, I don't LEASE them or some other bullcrap. I don't have them in a proprietary format that may do anything BUT last forever- honestly how many formats have you seen come and go? I've been doing computers for 20 years, and I love them to death, but I've seen enough formats to know that investing hundreds and hundreds of dollars in something that I don't have control over is a crummy decision.

The companies trying to impose tech and security is the problem. I can loan my book out to whoever I damn well please- it's my book after all. I can store my books away for 15 years in the garage (and have) and take them out after 15 years and read them (and have).

In 200 years- are they going to have CD/DVD players to read the backups of .pdx with DRM? Probably not.

Are they going to have eyes to read words on paper? God I hope so.

You act like those of us who like books have something wrong with us, but I think it's the people who don't have anything tactile that have something wrong with them sir.

Note: I just saw Jackattack said everything I said and in many cases better. phoey. I should read to the end of threads...
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#33751
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
I said it wordier, not better. Always share your thoughts.
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#33752
WotC SUES EIGHT FOR COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT 5 Years, 6 Months ago  
I tend to agree with these points, I think they're extremely sharp. I really think people ignore the time issue -- maybe because I'm a little older and so many of the technophile types are young, they don't seem to have the future in mind. There is such a fascination with what can be done now, nobody's thinking of "how will I access this stuff in twenty, thirty years?"

I had really cool computer games and applications twenty five years ago, on my Apple //c. I made cool games with the Adventure Construction Set, I composed music with the Music Construction Set, I made animated shorts with Take 1! I used to play Tomb Raider and Tomb Raider II back when I had a PC desktop. All of that stuff, which I really enjoyed, is gone now, without the hardware for it. Heck, the pictures I used to take -- of DF, even! -- on my Mac desktop, those are no longer accessible to me, I only have PC laptop now and the format's wrong.

It's just generally frustrating -- all the photos, text files, movies, games, whatever -- they're so platform-dependent, and platforms change so rapidly -- even if you do decide to stay with PC desktops or Mac laptops and never switch, the stuff won't run on the new OS or whatever. It's inconceivable to me that so many people are storing data they really value in ways they may not be able to access in fifteen years. With hard copies of photos, hard copies of books, that's not an issue. Yes, it takes up more physical space. But it's also easily accessible, no matter how the technology changes. That is hugely significant to me.

Digital copies are great as backups, in case of fire or flood, etc. But they could never replace the hard copies for me.

L
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