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4e Rogue class detailed
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TOPIC: 4e Rogue class detailed
#28347
4e Rogue class detailed 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
blairgb wrote:

Shoot, I can roleplay while playing monopoly or chess...

INDEED!

Yet, but some people need more "help" and tend to fall back into the comfort of the Rules rather than Stretch themselves into more active Role-Playing....if there is a rule for it, than its black and white and requires my intellect to apply rather than my imagination to create....
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#28348
4e Rogue class detailed 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
I'm still interested in 4E, and will definitely pick it up. With Mike Mearls at the helm, it's bound to have a lot I'll like.

Will I switch my campaign from 3.5 to 4.0? Likely, but with my own tweaks and house rules. That's how I've run D&D since 1977. What I like I use, and I alter or replace what I don't.

We'll see if this brings in a new generation of D&D players. I'm always happy to see new blood. It's often spilled on the floors of my dungeons.

:D
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#28349
4e Rogue class detailed 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
no more sleepy time in the middle of dungeons :lol:
Sounds like a video game....

It does!
I have spent the last 2 years "converting" D&D 3.5 into a quick playing "video game" type minis game so I am quite intrigued by what they come up with.

Think of it this way:
3.5 is for the "hardcore" D&D people (Advanced)
4.0 is for the "interested" D&D people to be (Expert/ Basic)

I really think this is a smart move for WOTC to make. You have to change with the times, or you die with the times.
I'm generalizing here…: Most people (especially younger) no longer have the patience that "true" RPG's require. Adults that grew up playing no longer have the time.
So what is needed is a middle ground for both to enjoy? The only drawback in taking a middle ground is the risk that NEITHER may enjoy it.

I have found that my "simplified/ streamlined" version of D&D has re-introduced players into the classic dungeon crawl. A lot of players compare it to a "Diablo/ Dungeon Siege" miniature/ board game and have fun remembering the "days of yesteryear". Most players I play with are 30+ and are "board gamers" that are turned off by the steep learning of D&D/ RPG's and the time needed to play a game.

I have found while running my “version”; (veteran & new) players love the mini's, Dwarven Forge, scenery and the fact that it takes about 5 minutes to learn and 2 hours to finish a dungeon.
WOTC REALLY needs something like this. They already have 3.5 and I can’t believe they have not already made a simpler version.
Personally, I'm afraid they won't "dumb it down" enough. :-)

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#28350
4e Rogue class detailed 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
I just don't get the "dumbed down" or "video game" comparisons. If by using those terms, you mean that combat (and the whole ruleset) has become faster and easier to learn and use, i'll agree with you, but that isn't a bad thing, that is progress! Does anyone actually remember 1st edition? Every fighter/wizard/thief/cleric/dualist/ranger/ect. was exactly the same. The DM's Guide had more obscure rules and tables you would think it was written by the Illuminati (and it may have been!). You needed a PhD in D&D to play. How about 2nd edition? Finally some customization with kits, but overall, still very linear progression (most classes looked exactly alike). And never mind still using THACO. And you still eventually needed that PhD. Then we get 3.X, and customization is all the rave. Combat is streamlined a bit, but still has some clunky elements (grappling, AoO's, ect.) But overall, an improvement. So now we come to 4th edition, and i'm reading all the same things I read about 3.0 and 3.5. I just don't buy it. Precedent says this game will be better than it's predecessors. Maybe not every facet, but overall, a further refinement of the hobby we all love.

And i'll reiterate my earlier point about ROLEplaying. It does not exist in a ruleset. It exists in the minds and word of the GM's and players at the table. Roleplaying was born out of tactical simulation, and has evolved into diceless RPG's, LARPs, Storyteller systems, and everything in between. Some players dig it, some players want to kill orcs. Others want to solve the big mystery, while others want to create the Most Powerful Hero Evar. Our hobby takes all kinds and our games usually flourish from it. The system used won't change those players' specialties.

A note about the Rogue class - I thought it was interesting that he has powers that target all the different defenses (will/reflex/fort). Looks like the designers want to make all the defenses equally important for all the classes. It also means that, for instance, if I wanted to run a low magic world, will defense is still important, because the non-magic classes can still attack it.

-Swift
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#28351
4e Rogue class detailed 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
I want to Agree with Swifthand,

How are they dumbing it down? It seems there will be more choices then ever to do. One must think about longer term character development. There are now racial abilities to choose from what I understand not given at first level, there are feats, and skills to choose per class. I am not sure that they will allow cross class skills but that also may influence your choice of class. I also do not see the video game/magic the gathering/WoW similarities. What strikes me as odd is that some/a good many of the ideas are in Saga and no one complained about saga??? In fact most said they liked it. I play in several games a month and have been doing so for years. All my gamers are DMs that run games different days of hte week than me. Some are RPGA Grand Master GMs or whatever the title is. We all min/maxed for a while and then we learned teh game. Still we quarel over each other rulings and the use of some of the rules. Take thsi scenario....


4th level characters, differnt classic races going down a field with high grass in high wind with pathces of fog on the field marked and difficult terrain overcome with 2 bug bears in the front and several giant spiders from teh trees. Who has sight, Cover, concealment, Flanking, and then one of the barbarians wanted to grapple who was wearing leather armoured that had the "slick" feel to it from page 219 in the DMG. So while they were fighting down the hill they encountered an assasin vine who detects enemies through sound, smell, and vibration. The whole battle took 2.5 hours!!! We stopped to calculate on a white board every bonus (Bard song, listen checks for those who can hear it), cleric spells, cover, concealment, flanking etc. Then every round every action was painful. Staying on foot not falling several immeadiate actions (which actions were immeadiate and which are not) I was rolling non stop with my checks also and then when, how does the assasin vine detect teh players. what are the penalties. One player goes down and still 1 bu bear stood. 1 spider down 1 trying to free itself from the vine along with the cleric. The party rescues teh cleric and then spots a cavern to run to for shelter and to defend against anything else. Then an argument happened that why that someone with 8 slots in listening who rolled a 19 on a check could not hear the calls for help and the muffled screams from teh adventures hanging in cacoons 60 feet down the cave 30 feet in teh air through 2 twist and turns while dragging the down player wearing metal armor into the cave. The point is that I spent 10 minutes describing the scene to them, cold, raining, foggy slopped downward with rocky ground, they spent 10 minutes deciding if the 2 creatures were friend or foe, (They failed their spot checks and search checks etc) and then went into combat. It took us 20 minutes to prepare for the battle and then almost 2 hours to finish the combat. In teh end the night was almost over (we had started late and we only play 6 hours normally) and not much got done. THe players rescued the still alive folks in the cacoons and then camped for the night and spent the whole night defending against spiders. Using fire attracted more bugbears who salvage what adventurers leave behind when the spiders attack. Most players said it was good to use all the rules, but that the game was not that good. The plot did not move forward. I wonder why? I hope 4th edition eases some of this or at least makes it clear what stacks, how to use what in what conditions etc. If it would have reduced this combat to 1 hour then that would have been appropiate for the night.

I like 3.5 very much. More than 2nd ed and 1st. but I would like the game to move smoothly. If I spend 4-6 hours preparing for a game and the first scenario takes half the session and I had intended it to take 1/6 of the session the system can be improved. IMHO.

-Shadox

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#28352
4e Rogue class detailed 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
I agree Shadox.
While developing my game, I explored various systems. I grew frustrated that I would spend weeks/months building terrain (using paper at that time) and only use one tenth of it during the actual session because it took hours upon hours for 1 battle to take place and move into another board section. Players grew bored and the whole process seemed tedious. Don't get me wrong, I think 3.5 has some great elements, but they REALLY need to stream line it. I find that players love to move around, run, jump, climb, kill monsters, grab treasure and explore. Unfortunately the sheer quantity of rules makes it a 20 min. ordeal to draw your sword! (Yes I'm exaggerting...)

Plus add to the fact that we now have access to hundreds of different prepainted minis (D&D Minis), stuff like Dwarven Forge and other great "visualization" tools, I believe a "new" system needs to created to take advantage of all these "goodies". I find it's a VERY different experience when using mini's vs graph paper or just spoken word.

Now back to building my JUMBO DF layout... :-)

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#28353
4e Rogue class detailed 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
Just so everyone knows how I feel. I love 3.5. I wold love it more if it advanced. I hope that 4th ed does that.

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#28354
4e Rogue class detailed 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
I have always been told that I am a very visual DM, I just love props. Which is why I have been using DF since I first saw it years ago. I am enthusiastic about 4E and hope it will take more advantage of miniature gaming, with out harming the Role-playing.

Brian
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Playing D&D since 1982 and DMing since 1986. I still rember that first red box! I've been a Dwarven Forge collector since 1998.
 
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