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4e rule changes
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TOPIC: 4e rule changes
#27662
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
2 posts threaded together from D&DContact that has some more info on 4e that I hadn't heard before:

> I would agree with this. Many of the changes I have
> heard fix things which I never perceived to be
> problems.

I agree whole-heartedly. And as a true-to-heart
traditionalist, I am appalled at the concept that a
paladin will no longer need to be LG. Sure I believe
there should be "holy warriors" for religions that are
not LG, but why not develop a different character
concept with a different attitude and different
ability trees. Afterall, they're doing this for the
implementation of character classes such as warlock,
warlord to expand upon the wizard. There's already an
"evil paladin" called the blackguard - why not add in
a neutral or chaotic one called a crusader or
something. Furthermore, I am disappointed that they
opted to add Tiefling as a core race (notorious for
its fiendish heritage and being roguish, troublesome
etc) but not have the wherewithall to balance it out
by adding in an Aasimar as core as well. The
Tiefling is the new Drow.

Another thing I dont like is the fact that there will
be 3 players handbook - and you'll need all three in
order to get access to all the core races and classes.
Each book will only introduce a few of them, so
instead of 30 bucks for one PHB you'll need to spend
90 bucks!

> As an example, they decided to do away with the
> confirmation roll for criticals. Critical hits
> occur automatically on a natural 20, but only do
> max damage.
>
> The reason for the change: they felt that it was
> too disappointing when players did not confirm the
> critical.
>

Other examples include getting rid of power attack
(too powerful according to them), changing the spell
level system - theres no more 1-9 level spells - now
spells are levelled 1-20.

> Other changes such as no more save-or-die-effects
> (such as the Medusa's gaze) and no more
> energy/ability drain were made with the mindset that
> these attacks were no fun to lose one's character
> too, so they were discarded. It seems to me like
> they are approaching it with the same mentality as
> those soccer leagues where kid play soccer but they
> do not keep score and everyone gets a trophy at the
> end of the year just for playing. ("Dumbed down" is
> the phrase I would use, but I was admonished by an
> EnWorld Admin not to say that because it was
> inflammatory).

Dumbed down is the right way to say it. Not to
mention that they opted to keep the same names of the
gods, but changed them around a lot - got rid of gods
like "Agriculture" and such - because "clerics of
agriculture are not known for wanting to become
adventures" I guess they feel that gamers can no
longer conceive of creative ways of coming up with
storylines, and they couldn't come up with NEW gods,
so they just re-used the same names and changed the
gods around. Dumbed down is right.

You and many others I've seen post frustration here
and on the Paizo board about EnWorld seeming to squash
any negativity posted about upcoming 4th Ed. Morris,
who owns EnWorld was seen cavorting and being given
the "royal treatment" by Wizards staff at Gen Con 07,
and many believe that he is getting some serious
kick-back by being the front-runner for "outside"
advertisement and "non-biased" reviews. Yet many have
been threatened to be kicked off the EnWorld site, and
many posts with negative opinions have been removed
from the messageboards. Thats why Paizo seems to have
the best source for the "Cons" of upcoming 4th.

> The big problem I have - too many classes- is not
> being remedied. The Warlord and Warlock are now
> core classes for example.
>
> I will not be switching. It will be an earlier
> edition (3.5 most likely), another system, or I give
> up RPG's altogether.

I'll play 3.5 for a long while still. I have enough
printed material by the good adventure publishers of
Necromancer, Fantasy Flight, Goodman Games and of
course Paizo to continue running games for several
years without ever running out of material.
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#27663
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
I am chilling about all this. I will ignore the hype and the doom sayers and wait to read the product myself. If our group agrees, we will play test it. If it's better than 3.5, great, if not then we will be sticking with 3.5.

There is always Mongoose (Conan, Runequest, new Traveller) Games and old favourites like Call of Cthulhu, Mutants and Masterminds, Pendragon and others to look at.

Dave
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#27664
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
im going along for the ride on 4th ed. If you dont like tieflings or other rules dont use them. I think the people who dont want 4th ed are worried that many will.
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#27665
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
I like some of the new rules and dislike some of the new rules. Like all editions before it we developed home rules. For instance we do not like the roll or die spells/abilities because no matter how good of a player one is or how good of a role player 1 roll determines your fate. However in the spirit of the game we have had roll or die situations in which we lost one of our party members. We abondoned our quest adn went on a quest to save the other person from the afterlife. We all made it a choice that this kind of storyline would be fun. However knowing that, most of the time when I DM or someone from my original group we most likely do not put in roll or die spells. As for level drain we max it at 2 levels if the player is below 10th level and at 3 levels from 10th to 15th level and 4 levels 15th or above. This seemed to work for us. The character is not to weak to continue with the group and moves up a lot quicker due to the more XP granted etc. So we played around it. I am intrigued with the choices aspect that they are trying to bring to DND. I am not intrigued with the Video Game attributes they are bringing to the game. With that said if the choices out weigh the video game stuff then cool. By video game stuff I mean the dumbing down others refer to. I agree that WOTC is trying to move away from drow and move towards tieflings. Not sure why other than they can not control drow storylines, pop culture etc. Tieflings they can. More races, more classes is ok for me. It saves me money buying supplements to get other races, classes etc. All in All I will continue to run 3.5 games as most of my players are nay sayers to 4th ed., but I will purchase the material and look for a game to either run or play in within 2 months of all the books coming out.

My $.02 worth

-Shadox
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#27666
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
Check this link for pictures of some new 4e style monsters:

ddmspoilers.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1138
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#27667
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
Cool. Thanks for the post

shadox
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#27668
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
Shadox -

Didn't your group simply use Restoration or Greater Restoration to restore levels lost to energy drain? That was one of my beefs with 3x edition D&D - they stuck these spells in there to easily remove ability point and level drains!

I'll probably purchase the PH, but from what I'm hearing, that will only be SOME of the races and classes - the rest will be released in subsequent installments of the PH over several years......sounds like it is not the same as the Complete Splat books from 3x edition but rather a withholding of core material from the first PH to extort more money from players....
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#27669
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
Meh.
I'm still running 3.0 - and still having fun with it.
Hey, my games still draw gamers at Shore Leave; when our group gets together at home, we still have fun. I still enjoy buying, customizing, and collecting DF.
Who needs 3.5, 4.x, or whatever?
Hasbro - go 'way! I got a GAME to play!
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#27670
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
Harneloot,

That assumes we were campaigning with a cleric. Restoration only restores 1 level and if I remember correctly only the day you get drained? Could be wrong on that. Greater restoration is good but is a 7th level cleric spell which is I think a 14th level cleric before they can cast more than 1 or 2. Most of the folks in my party will take greater cure serious wounds mass and/or resurrection so I loose. :-( I guess if we had a cleric it would be ok. Then again we do not always have a cleric. In the end I guess it works, the mechanics, it is just a house rule that we made.

-Shadox
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#27671
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
I always try to keep an open mind. I do remember back in the old days when the new "Advanced" Dungeons & Dragons came out. As a player, I was leery of the new books, which seemed to drip with Gygax's egoisms. But, in time, I put aside my misgivings and went with it, in part because it was clear the the tide had turned, and the large majority of D&D players had made the change. Still, like most, I modified or replaced those rules that I felt did not work for my campaign.

When 2nd edition came out, I welcomed the change. It was a chance to breathe fresh life into the old game, and it gave players some new options, like Thieves getting to assign their skills instead of a single chart by level. As before, I and my friends modified or replaced those rules that we didn't like, and we played and had fun. The same went with 3.0 and 3.5.

The new edition will likely have some elements that I will enjoy. If the information is correct, it seems that all classes are getting abilities usable X times per day, per encounter, or at will. I like flexibility and freedom, and will likely find favor with this. Some elements I don't think I'll like, and I'll modify or replace those elements.

The critical hit system, as described, seems very bland and boring. Max damage on a natural 20 is, in my mind, a "nerf" that D&D doesn't need. Yep, I've killed PCs with critical hits (Ogres with battleaxes are nasty), but without the threat of death, victory is hollow and meaningless. So, I'll likely not use the new critical system. Oh, and I don't mind confirmation rolls because my players have breated hearty sighs of relief when an enemy's critical threat failed to confirm. I just don't think that any attack on an opponent that needs a 20 to hit should be an automatic critical. That's just my preference; your mileage may vary.

I do wish that WotC wasn't so secretive about the process, though. I'd much prefer that they took the time to get feedback on the design elements, so that they can find out what we, the players and GMs, want and don't want.
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#27672
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
Wow, 4th (5th really) edition.

I was looking through my red box from the 1st ed of DnD where if you were an elf, dwarf, or halfling, that WAS your class. Other then that it had the fighter, thief, mage and cleric. 7 classes, 3 were races....

Then 1st ed, with the str 18(00) and the way they rules were organized, fun game, but it had gaps....

Skipped 2nd

I've played 3.0 since it came out, and switched to 3.5 and liked it better...

That said, the game DRAGS at higher level, when you have a fighter with 2 weapon fighting and improved critical at higher levels, and electrical dmg or what not, you are seriously keeping track of 4 or 5 attacks with sometimes 3 or 4 dice per attack and then rolling to confirm crits on them and rolling more damage dice, we are talking 12 or more dice, easily.

If 4th edition simplifies the game so that ONE battle does not take 45 minutes, then I'm all for it.

One example: Bull strength lasts 1 minute per level, so at 10 level, 10 minutes.

The fight takes 7 rounds, so the spell is active for 9 minutes and 18 seconds. So now someone should keep track of the spell and the parties activity just to see if the next fight starts in less then 10 minutes... which is annoying. So the DM says it just lasts this one battle anyways, cause its simpler. Player points out that that's not fair, the rules allow for use for the full time, an advantage of being a more powerful spell caster.... and so on.

New rule from 4th ed, from what I understand: Buff spells last the time of the combat. PERIOD.

There is too simple... but in my mind esoteric rules that create realism at the expense of playability suck.

A game can have simpler rules without being dumbed down.

Example: Chess.

Way simpler rules then half the board games in your game store. Try telling a chess master that his game is dumb.....

Anyhow, I'll be running the intro adventure with my DF stuff for 4 E in April, and I really believe that it will be better then 3.5.... Maybe I'll be wrong, but that's OK, I've got Tunnels and Trolls on my bookshelf if all else fails....

Cheers.
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#27673
4e rule changes 6 Years, 7 Months ago  
Celtchief Robert -

That's why I never even went to 3.5; I stuck with 3.0, and if a rule interfered with playability, so much for the rule.
Remember, the purpose of the game is to HAVE FUN; this is ONLY A GAME, and if you and your gamers agree that some rule is stupid, interferes with playability, and generally sucks the lifeblood and enjoyment OUT of Dungeons and Dragons, then the RULE GOES!
At least, that's how THIS DM plays it. And every year, I get gamers coming back to my table st Shore Leave; some who've never played D&D, and some who get their butts STOMPED every time, because they know they'll get a fair, honest, enjoyable game (either that, or they're really masochists of the first order, I'm never really SURE which!). And, I always manage to throw in a little twist SOMEWHERE that leaves them shaking their heads and saying "Howinhell did he manage to do THAT to me?"

Robert, I know I'm probably preaching to the choir here, but as a DM, you've gotta either leave 'em laughing, or leave 'em scratching their heads in confusion. While you pack up your stuff and RUN for the door!

The ONLY time you have to worry about the rules is when you're running an RPGA game, where Hasbro and WotC sits there with their own set of rulebooks for the current version and throws "THOU SHALT" all over the place. Otherwise, screw it AND them; the DM IS god.
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