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E4 od D&D on the way.
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TOPIC: E4 od D&D on the way.
#26011
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
For the most part it is the "digital" thing that is killing my intrest in 4.0

I was going to go read up on some of the play test etc, and just to read about the new stuff i have to sign up. I hate that. I can understand and except signing up to a website to post, purchase, or get acces to certain expanded content, but to have to sign up to just get their basic stuff, to just read the info on the game i don't like that.
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#26012
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
Out of curiosity, does everyone here know something I am missing?

The Digital content stuff is supposed to be a replacement for their Dragon & Dungeon publications as well as providing some GM and player tools for online gaming. I seem to recall reading somewhere on the site that they still want to keep the game as a pen and paper system where the digital stuff is a possible supplement but not mandatory for it to work. If that is the case, it realy is no difference to not subscribing to Dragon or Dungeon back when Wizards was handling the publishing. Yeah, there's interesting stuff there, but if you don't have it, you won't exactly miss it.

By the same token, as others here have said, Wizards does not have the key to each players imagination, so it is still feasible to game with 4E without picking up the digital stuff and still have it work......

Or am I being excessively optimistic? :D
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#26013
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
All

This is an interesting debate and I have been following it for some days without really having the time to add my own comment.

Is the effect positive or negative for my own group and me as GM?

Actually I see a positive side effect for myself. I'm playing D&D 3 and didn't bother to upgrade to 3.5. So far my group never reached 10th level - the last time there was a TPK at level 9. We are back to Level 7 now - still a while to reach a region where I feel unconfortable with the system aka it becomes too unbalanced.

I restricted myself and the group to the early Core Rulebooks as well as the early add ons for Fighter and Monks etc. The later editions resulted in too much sprawl in my eyes. In addition I moved to the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting and use the background from there as well - plus the options there.

With 4.0 coming out I surely will NOT buy into it. But I take it as opportunity that there won't be more books in the future for 3.x This means - I will have a look which books I still need, get them on a wish list - and some day have all I ever wanted. If I can't buy them in a shop anymore - who cares.

The 3.0 rules have limitations - but in the end what really is important is the GM and the group he is playing with. We just got a new player and we have loads of fun with the current adventures.

Munchkinism and Rule Lawyers - well - 3.0 allows a lot of freedom. I once had a player complaining about a skeleton with a bow. Skeletons can't use bows in this system he said. I showed him the miniature I used (one of the DF skeletons). Can you see the bow - well - then this skeleton is able to use a bow. End of discussion.

What armour class is there in the Monster Manual for the Skeleton. Hmm - have you taken into account the ripped Chain Shirt which the Skeleton wears. Have you taken into account that this is a -1 Chain Shirt - etc.

Yes - it can be a pain if you want to add a bow or a chain shirt to a skeleton in e-tools. I think you need two or three feats to make it possible. But hey - the rules allow this - and I'm the GM and use them the way I think is best for the game.

So much my rant about the new version. Won't impact my gaming group. And I never used stat cards anyhow.

Thod
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#26014
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
you're right thod, i have been a GM since 1988 now. And my group have become used to it that
the person who is GM in the particular session makes free decisons about what happens.

So we really don't need a monster contruction kit, we do it your way.
Skeletons can't use bows when i am GM ok. If i would be in your group and there are skeletons
with bows i wouldn't complain about it i would try to "turn the foul creatures in the name of Torm"
or "immobilize them with my hold undead spell", for both i haven't to think about the chainshirt you mentioned ;)

Conclusion is for me: the GM should cobble together what he sees fitting and hey when you need that
feat for the Monster then simply attach it and go further instead of looking onto the monster advancement tables.

Same for Munchkinisn, i had changed "Gaseous Form" in my campaign, cause i use few magic items and
it would have been too hard as described in 3.0. So the players had to use it the way we thought out
and good as is.
Think today many forget that you don't play againt the GM
instead the GM should be some kind of storyteller / referee for the gaming group.
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don't hate the character hate the game system
 
#26015
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
At Shore Leave this year I had a guy who pulled a fast one on me; I was running 3.0 rules, and it wasn't until after the game that I found out some ofthe stuff he was running on his ninja rogue was 3.5 rules stuff. That was okay anyway, he still got killed (but it was harder to run the game with him in it; so I had more of a challenge to make it come out the way I wanted it to; big deal!).
I do not think I will be moving to 4.0; the more I hear about it here on the forum, the less I think I'm going to invest in it. The only thing I've read so far that I might want would be the character builder software, and I've pretty much got eTools customized the way I want it now, so why bother? As I've said already, I'm happy with 3.0, and my core group is as well, so why bother. We don't run RPGA sanctioned events, we aren't trying for RPGA ranking, and since RPGA is pretty much a WotC/Hasbro-owned sanctioning body anyway, what difference does it make?
I'm here to have fun, my gamers are here to have fun. We like to mix up D&D, DS, Modern, and anything ELSE we decide to throw into the mix! You never know WHAT you're liable to find when you come around a corner in one of OUR DF corners!

Or, to quote Jane Wyman as Amanda Grayson,

"Logic, logic, I'm sick to death of logic!"

Jim
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#26016
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
Green Knight

Tell Stefan that skeletons can't use bows ;-) Just joking - but the sole reason I allowed them was because I used some models with these in their hands.

2Jim - actually when I stared DandD 3.0 I decided to disallow the monk. Didn't liked the potential to become ridiciolous - making more damage bare handed once high level as a fighter with a sword of the same level.

Otherwise I go with the flow and what makes sense in game terms. I once had a Paladin/Barbarian - and this wasn't the player who tried to pull this combination. The Paladin got cursed with a battle frenzy whenever he was close to a battle. The player really smiled when I told him next level - take the d12 and not the d10 for the hit points. Then I explained - from now on you are barred from gaining Paladin levels until you have redeemed yourself. And your effective Paladin level goes down by as many levels as you have barbarian levels.

Yep - I wrote a whole adventure just to allow the Paladin/Barbarian to retrieve the sword of Torm which had been stolen. He managed to redeem himself by sacrifiying himself in a duell when faced with a much more powerful Black Knight guarding the sword. His sacrifice broke the ban and allowed Torm to show up himself (well - at least his avatar which took over the body of the paladin) and for one short moment he was having the stats of a god - which resulted in quick mince meat of the black guard.

Once resurrected by Torm and being Paladin 6 / Barbarian 2 he unfortunately got killed not too long later by 2 ordinary first level orks. It was the wierdest dice rolling I had seen in a long while. Combined 12 HP against 60+ and a much higher AC - we don't even add the magic weapon. But two criticals with battle axes later by the orc and two near fumbles later by the paladin and the next hit was the decicive one. Well - it wasn't the paladin ...

Well - probably two points I wanted to make with the story

The rules are there to help the GM - and I use them depending how they fit into the story. And secondly - no matter how much munchkinsim you do - sometimes you still go down against all odds. These are the moments you remember - not the once when someone optimized his character and just hacked whatever was send in his way.

Thod
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#26017
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
Thod -

What had happened was, late friday night, it was getting VERY TIRED out, I was dragging around the game room, I'd been up since 5 AM and still had to go home and do some last-minute printouts, and I only had 5 gamers signed up for the Game.
Up comes this smirking dude that says he'd love to play IF he can run his rogue/ninja. Now, being a nice guy that is half-conscious, and not being EXACTLY sure what a split character is going to do when he will need to equal at least a level 8-10 to survive against some of the stuff I've packed into this game, I tell the guy sure, but make sure he's a level 8-10 total.
This smarmy SOB apparently packed him up to an average 9 EACH, and used 3.5 rules, too, according to an RPGA GM that was one of my other gamers. This other GM didn't want to Rules Lawyer into my game while it was running (true fellow GM etiquette, I think!), but let Sandy know later on, whilst I was loading out the car. Anyway, here I am, trying to run a decent game while this total rotter is bouncing his rubber-band man ninja all over the damn game board!
NEXT TIME I run a game, IF I let him in, he dies faster than Coffey!
Because NEXT game, I'm building a Ninja-killer Mecha, just for him; even if I have to resurrect John Coffey's sapphire heart to power it!
And there WILL be no 3.5 or 4.0 rules allowed.

Screw up MY game, will he?

'Sokay, I'm onto him now; besides, I killed him out.
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#26018
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years ago  
I'm all for a new version if it improves upon 3.5. As long as D&D continues to evolve towards Rolemaster, my core group will be happy. Balance the feats, provide character customization, add some colorful critical hit system to the game and add character storage software and we're in. If not, we stick with what we have or move back to Rolemaster if the new ICE ever gets its act together and cleans up their aging RMSS.

Some laptop (software) tools would be very helpful such as what DMGenie offers. As I predicted awhile back, 4.0 is moving much more towards being computer based than paper and pencil based (although we'll still roll dice no matter what!). Some very good electronic tools include character generation, NPC generation and storage, profile/pictures, sound effects, etc. I for one am looking forward to seeing what WOTC/Hasbro produce.
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#26019
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years ago  
Hey Aracon,

Rolemaster huh. Yes, the game where you need an entire book to do the combat...

I always preferred Rolemaster's younger and streamlined brother, MERP.

Cheers
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Robert
 
#26020
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years ago  
Celtchief,

Yup, and extremely well done for its day. With a few home brew rules to streamline combat (initiative that works very much like 3.5) and some optional rules to fix some system flaws (leather armor being less effective than no armor, cumbersome undead turning spells, etc) Rolemaster was superior to 2nd AD&D in so many ways. With some electronic tools it actually flowed smoother than 2nd AD&D (calculating THACO, determine hit die size, etc).

Most rolemaster players were hardcore roleplayers and experience points were more than just about killing stuff and getting treasure.
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#26021
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years ago  
Aracon, Celtchief,

I did not know ICE was still around. I was a BIG MERP fan and used that system for a long time. In fact my group and I used it more often than not. When we aquired a rules lawyer they split to Ad&d exclusively and I was looking for a new group. When they got tired of min and maxing they invited me back and used MERP for a long time until of course 3.0. So is it on the net? Can I google it. Is there still data out there. This is so cool.

-Shadox
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#26022
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years ago  
www.ironcrown.com is the site. The current owner is one of the original founders. I had personally hoped that Monte Cook (who cut his teeth at ICE on the rolemaster line many years ago) would return and help them revamp their system.

Many of the 3.0 elements came from rolemaster or one of it's companions.

With computer technology, WOTC (or ICE) could really ramp up a realistic combat system. For example, a kobold's arrow (without using a cheesy optional rule) can't kill a 10th level character. I've seen a goblin put an arrow through the heart of a high level character in rolemaster (who had his back turned).

Our group grew up with rolemaster and we like combat to be more than just who has more hit points and who's sword has the highest plus. The positional gains (flanking, rear strikes, shield parries, etc) really made that system a hit for us.

We went back to D&D X.YZ system to accomodate new users and make our limited game time involve more encounters. (Rolemaster takes longer to resolve battles).
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