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E4 od D&D on the way.
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TOPIC: E4 od D&D on the way.
#25975
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
THIS is why I never stepped up to 3.5!

Been there, done that; got the ball cap, the T-shirt - and the scars.

I'll take a look at 4.0, before I congratulate OR condemn. Who know, maybe THIS TIME they'll get E-Tools RIGHT!

Jim
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#25976
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
Won't buy it. I already spent tons of money into minis and previous ed. books. I even bought the "special edition" leather cover core books a 100$ each.

They can't expect us to throw it all away and start over.

I'm worried about the miniatures. I buy tons of this plastic crap. I use them mainly for d&D play and greatly appreciate the RPG card side, so if the miniatures becomes 4th ed., I will stop buying them too.

They should learn from the past:
I was a big Magic: The gathering player and collector for 10 years. I had a HUGE collection, and completed almost all the sets (missing only a few cards) except Alpha, beta, and unlimited. When they changed the rules, and mostly the look of the cards ("white artifacts"), I stopped buying cards, and 2 years later sold all my collection for around 5000$ (it was worth 18000$).

I hope they don't make me drop D&D, since it would mean dropping DF too....
crioux
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Christian Rioux
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#25977
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
I'll be all over this one when it is released. Their Gen-Con presentation is promising a more stream-lined, smoother play experience.

I'm with Jim...I think if they get the e-tools down right, this one has potential to be a major improvement!

I guess we'll find out in May/2008.

~Cheers
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#25978
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
It's largely a matter of marketing. On the one hand, if people feel their collections are USELESS, even newbies will be turned off -- who wants to plunk down a lot of change for something that WILL be useless in a few years when 5.0 comes out?

On the other hand, if people feel that there won't ever be anything new, that can be a turn-off as well. Some people really like the whole "newness" of it, and once they've "mastered" the basic rules and so on, they start to lose interest. Tweaking the rules and coming up with a new setup is actually a DRAW for many people, who otherwise would feel itchy and want to move onto something new.

So they need to strike the right balance -- enough continuity to preserve the old guard, but enough change to entice those who are threatening to get bored.

I was under the impression that 3.0 and 3.5 were pretty successful -- maybe too much so, though. I mean, 3.0 didn't drive away 2.0 fans and convince them it had all been a waste -- but maybe there were not that many 2.0 fans, and the game has gotten much bigger since 3/.5....

Hm...

L
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#25979
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
3.5 suits me just fine. I doubt my friends and I will upgrade.

"I was a big Magic: The gathering player and collector for 10 years. I had a HUGE collection, and completed almost all the sets (missing only a few cards) except Alpha, beta, and unlimited. When they changed the rules, and mostly the look of the cards ("white artifacts"), I stopped buying cards"

EXACTLY my story!!! I can't stand all the new friggin' rules... do you know that now there's a MTG card type called "Timeshift" or some crap, where it's a card in a given set that's basically just a card that's going to be released in a future set... and they play it off like they're not selling you the same crap twice! Add that to all those cards that you can play face down and then flip over and other weird crap, in addition to the rediculous "facelift" the faces of the cards got, and the whole thing just seems way too much like Yugioh to me... I tried playing someone with a new deck and i couldn't even follow what he was doing.

Poppycock.
The Angry Gnome
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#25980
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
Well...
On one hand I knew a 4th edition was coming at some point. You know that once sales of the core books drops... then it's time to revamp. I imagine the source books don't sell nearly as well.
So, 4.0 comes out.... makes our stuff obsolete? Let's look on the good side...

Chances are one will be able to get missing 3.5 books at a discount.

You know an active web community will keep new 3.5 material coming.

All your mini's cards may not match up with 4.0, but an orc is an orc is an orc. The actual mini's will not become obsolete....

Ditto for your DF....

Who knows, maybe 4th will be better.....

I mean, if they can create a comprehensive and useful index...that would be a heckuva start....

People still play 1st ed, 2nd ed, and will still play 3.0/5. Unlike computer games, RPG's all use the same OS.

On the other hand, I do have concerns when they say they are going to simplify some of the complex rules in 3.5.....

Maybe some of the rules need it, like grappling. Then again, maybe it will be a step to making DnD even more like a complex board game, and less like an RPG.....

We shall see.....
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#25981
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
I think 3.5 streamlined a lot of the rule mechanic problems from previous editions however succummed to power gaming munchkinism. I'm of the view that a simplified and depowered 3.5 rule set is pretty good. I would hazard to suggest the 4th edn may be simplified but will remain highly munchkinised.

The great thing about 3.5 (and no doubt what WOTC hate) is the OGL which means it will take a long time to kill. Only vastly superior digital tools etc will tip that balance so lets see how good these can be. I've tried to use computer tools in the past which are good for reference, but I found as a DM you need to be pretty good with your rules knowledge full stop. Dumbing down the game does make this easier to achieve.

The potentially exiting aspect of 4th edn is the online 3D graphics for remote play. I will always prefer to play as a live group but for those unable to attend for other reasons this is a pretty cool development. (Though I guess a web cam could do the same) It looks like the 3D part may be rules neutral (to a degree) if it only effectively provides a 3D combat grid (plus lighting!). We will have to wait and see. We just need the 3D dungeons to be Dwarven Forge compatable to work with those playing in person.

Cheers
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#25982
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
!!! I just realised! This... 4e, as they describe it, is already out! It has been for years, but under the moniker of "Neverwinter Nights"
The Angry Gnome
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"So, Mr. Ghaal, what would you say is the main driving force behind Gorgoroth's music?"
"Hm.... Satan."
 
#25983
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
Nope, I will not buy yet another set of books and source stuff. Reboot after reboot. Just can't afford it anymore and can't keep up with the rules changes anyway. I am still reeling from WOTC's decision to make all the miniatures in Axis and Allies Miniatures another scale so all the others will now be very small in comparison. Now they do this? Oye.....
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#25984
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
I am sympathetic to all those frustrated by this decision, but I am curious about one thing -- do people think it's such a bad thing to just stay with the old rules and play with them, in home games?

I mean, a transition to new rules seems to "require" updating your library in one of two circumstances:

1) You play a lot of tournaments, and have to be legal for them.

2) You want to keep getting supplements, and the new ones won't be compatible.



In the case of (2), the complaint is minimal. If your goal is to keep buying books, then surely you can buy the 4e books as you would have bought new 3.5 books? If they released 30 books at once, it would be annoying, but we're talking about springing for the basic 3 in one month, and then over a period of years slowly accumulating new ones, which is basically what you'd be doing anyway, if this is your complaint ("I want to be able to buy new books"). The only problem is that you'd be starting a "new" collection, and your old one would be outdated. And, sure, it's annoying to have an "outdated" library, but then, I still enjoy my 1e books, and sometimes it can take so long for some material to be updated -- if it EVER is! -- that having the old ones around as references is still useful and fun. I really love my old Dragonlance stuff, and not only did it take forever to get a 3e upgrade, the upgrade itself was, IMHO, far inferior to the original 1e edition. (for one thing, they left out two of the elements that made Dragonlance so classic -- the great artwork, which we got a lot more of back then, and the really cool maps, which were reduced to thumbnails in the new books) It seems what really matters is the QUALITY of what you have, not whether or not it's the most up-to-date version.

Still, though, this is the objection that makes the most sense to me, being stuck with an outdated library. I mean, whether or not you want to buy new books, you presumably don't like the thought that your old ones are out of date, even if you don't play tournaments. I suppose for people who have VAST collections it can be even more grating.

As for the tournament complaint, well -- how popular is tourney play? How DOMINANT, to be more precise? If it really is the primary way people play, this is a devastating move. But am I the only one who plays home games? With just friends? It's easy for us to use whatever rules we want -- in fact, we usually make our own changes and updates, anyway, so we're almost never "tourney legal." And that's fine with us! But for people who want to be able to play legally, an updated rule set means you MUST upgrade, and that can be annoying.


L
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"In every real man a child is hidden that wants to play."

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#25985
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
I am up in the air about 4 if it will be Star Wars Saga like, I am as of now Totally unsure if it like the new way they run skills. The game is a slimmed down, and simplified rules system, that has some things that look good and others that while they don't look bad, they look very different, and i won't know if i like it till i run it, and right now, no one i know wants to play it so it's kind of a big question mark for me as to if the new system is good. There is potential for coolness or utter garbage in it.

I know enough about the talent, feat system from d20Modern to go, oh this does look nice, but the Skills are just Wha... What?


I am wondering if i can get a "Fast Play" going with my group, on a day when something else has been cancelled....
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More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
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#25986
E4 od D&D on the way. 7 Years, 1 Month ago  
My thoughts on 4th edition. I've been playing since 1977, and remember when "Advanced" Dungeons & Dragons came out. A lot of people looked at it askance, thinking that they didn't need a new system. Eventually, most made the transition. That pattern was repeated with 2nd edition, 3rd, and 3.5.

I'll keep an open mind, and see what they do for 4th edition. I'm optimistic about it because Mike Mearls is the lead designer. Mike brought us Iron Heroes, which has a lot of elements that I liked. His blog states that they've looked at the system with a critical eye, and will keep the parts that work while replacing the parts that don't.

I'll wait and see. If the new system is better than the old one, I'll buy it. Likely I'll make my own changes and additions to it, as I have since '77.
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