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Boy, some people are hostile
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TOPIC: Boy, some people are hostile
#16682
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
One thing that amazes me about the vehemence of the detractors is, lots of these guys have no qualms about dropping several hundred dollars to order CASES of new D&D minis every time a new series is released ...
And then add to the equation the longevity of their given game of choice.

That's just it -- I think I mentioned this in the Terrainosaur review. Those D&D minis I bought six years ago -- they are exactly the same today. But the setups I had in 2000 of my DF stuff, today I have a totally different setup.

It's the only product out there (other than HA) that works like that -- you can constantly get new things out of it, you don't just have a static, changeless item sitting on a shelf gathering dust.

Man, some of these thoughts I should put in Tom's "Why do you love DF?" thread....


L

eDIT: actually, my "other than HA" comment is a bit stingy -- there are other companies out there, like Ainsty and WWG and so forth, that make modular or otherwise "creative" products -- I was thinking in terms of minis or things like MBA, which makes gorgeous buildings but they of course never change...
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"In every real man a child is hidden that wants to play."

-- F. Nietzsche
 
#16683
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
And it bears repeating, those the denigrate DF in favor of HA or WWG aren't taking the "time=money" factor into consideration. The amount of time it would take to cast, build and paint the equivalent of a MM set using HA, if you multiply the hours by my net hourly income, I'm sure that sum would be equal or more than the cost of a MM set. I have dog walks, dates, bike rides, gigs to catch, parties, band practice, books to read, meals to cook, laundry, etc going on in my life, I can't spend a week building my own dungeons sets (as much as I DO LOVE building dungeons pieces out of HA). The price tag is well worth it.

Now storage space...that is a serious consideration! I can definately see the appeal of 2D tiles such as Skeleton Key games, etc, just due to the amount of space a sizaable DF collection requires.
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Advanced Builder - Cavern x2 - Cavernous Passages x3 - Deluxe Room x2
Den of Evil x 2 - Fantasy Floors - Narrow Passage - Octagonal Room - Ogre's Den
Room and Passage x2 - Room Set - Traps Set 1 - Traps Set 2 - Wicked Additions
Wicked Additions II - Accessories - Furniture - Treasure
 
#16684
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
It is fairly expensive - at least this side of the pond, but when you really look at what you get, it isn't bad value at all. It took me a very long time to decide to buy some DF - I'd been ogling it on the web for years before I bought any. I bought it because I saw it set up on a trader's stand at a wargames show - it looked so much better 'in the flesh' than it did on the web. It took me most of the day, even then, to pluck up the courage to plonk down the money - and I was distinctly nervous about arriving home with it. The reception was cool to begin with, but She could see the quality, and when I pointed out how we could use it for our RPG sessions as well as my wargaming, she was sold on the idea.

Those first sets were Caverns and Cavernous Passages. Caverns are still my favourites, though I now have rather more sets. All my other sets have been picked up on Ebay, with a few individual bits bought from a trader. I always make my max bid (minus postage) less than or equal to retail. I don't always win - maybe only half the time, but I've often got sets as real bargains.

Now though, Ebay seems to be drying up and with DF only selling direct, I'm going to have to buy at retail (plus shipping to the UK). And we're moving house, so I'm going to be broke. So, sadly, I am going to have to be very selective in what I buy. I haven't bought any Cavernous Rivers or Lakes - I decided I'd wait for the 'mystery' set (as I knew what it was), knowing that, nice though the cavernous water sets would be, the 'mystery' set would be of more use to me.

She owes me a present - for our 22nd wedding anniversary (today!!) - so I am being allowed to buy that set - and a couple of other bits and pieces. Anything else will have to wait for the next time I'm due a present.

I'm sure the hostility is just sour grapes.

Phil
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Medieval Buildings Set, Caverns x2, Cavernous Passages, Room and Passage, Deluxe Room, Octagonal Room, Narrow Passages, Advanced Builder, Wicked Additions I, Wicked Additions II, Traps I, Traps II, lots of individual pieces. I want Cavernous Rivers, and Cavernous Lakes, and Cavernous Ledges. Can you tell that I like caverns?
 
#16685
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
Phil -

HAPPY ANNIVERSARY !!

I've heard that the 22nd year is the "resin" year :) I'm only at my 6th so that's probably something lame like bubble wrap :lol:

Enjoy your day !!
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#16686
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
One thing I frequently tell people -- you don't have to buy it all at once! Your old sets aren't going to go bad, it isn't milk. You can keep them and slowly add on.

L

Well, dang. I noticed the expiration dates on my room and passage sets and tossed them out. I wish I had read this post earlier!

And, right now, you can't slowly add on - they're making them too fast!

Of course, once D&D goes to hexes - we're screwed.
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#16687
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
...went over to Paizo to read the thread and was struck by the absolute lack of maturity in some posters...

...but I do have a little theory about the vehemence. It goes like this...

In reality everyone really LOVES Dwarven Forge and would be totally THRILLED to have a ton of it, but then, when people see the price tag they react in two major ways.

The DF buyers:

These people give in to their love of DF and either bring out the credit card to reel off the numbers right away, or start saving up and possibly contemplates not sending the kids to college...

The DF bashers:

These people realize that their love of DF cannot be fulfilled to the extent of their heart's content, in which case they go into total denial. Instead of expressing their appreciation for this obvious perfection, they go the other route, and vehemently slam DF from the first moment, simply to protect their own wallets.

No other way of explaining this absolutely silly slamming of what is really just a... product... and not a life and death matter either...

I do think that's a sound analysis of the phenomenon -- a lot of sour grapes out there

...

L

Finally someone brought in Æsop's Fables!!!
I thought I would get laughed out of town if I did.
Either that or the alternative stupidity mentioned in one of prior posts above that I have been suffering through the last few days.

This situation as Willypold & Law describe it is sssooooooo the Fox and the Grapes.
As we all know though, the grapes are really sweet and tasty!

I must add though that, I believe, a small but real percentage of some of these DF-basher people are not foxes; the truly unfortunate reality is that they are converts of the foxes.
They have never taken a real look at Master Maze; they just believe what the foxes say "hook, line and sinker."
How's that for mixing metaphors?

Ok, product-wise DF is of course the Porsche of the gaming industry, but I think we all already agree on that... :-)
Naw, Porsche's product has become too plebeian around the world unless you are talking about classic ones from the '60s or early '70s.
Plus Porsche vehicles are not all that durable, especially not so when flying along and then crashing into something from major errors in judgement.

Dwarven Forge product to me is the Bentley of the gaming world.
For those who do not know, Bentleys are made by the creme de la creme special division of the Rolls Royce company and they last for decades.
To me, Master Maze is a product of the same quality level, just without the absolutely astronomical price.

One thing that amazes me about the vehemence of the detractors is, lots of these guys have no qualms about dropping several hundred dollars to order CASES of new D&D minis every time a new series is released (every 3-4 months, I believe). We're all passionate about our hobbies and our chosen "addictions" and there's more than enough room for all ... "glass houses", "black pots and kettles" and all ...
Is it not the absolute truth here?
I deal with some gamers that think it is no problem to buy the D&D minis as you said, but also the MechWarrior Dark Age and HeroClix minis by the caseloads, but cannot see themselves to buy the number of boxes of Master Maze that said money would buy.
The excuse I usually receive with a great deal of emotion from such folks is that they get so many more items for the money which I usually have to agree that just by the numbers they are right.
I watch these people over time though and see their frustration about quality terrain to use and I have to shake my head.
One less case of each mini release would have bought them anywhere from one to four Master Maze terrain boxes depending on the particular mini release and Master Maze box sets.
If they had done so, they would have had excellent terrain to play on.

And then add to the equation the longevity of their given game of choice. Dwarven Forge NEVER gets stale or boring. While I may tire of various game systems, my DF collection is ALWAYS there to adapt to most games I choose to play: D&D rpg, D&D skirmish, Warhammer RPG, Warhammer Quest, Descent, Hybrid, and even Mordheim and Necromunda ...
Boredom, oh do I see boredom happening way too often and then more vast sums of money have to be spent on the latest releases for whatever game to get the boys out of the doldrums.
There is one el-tee I know up in the Olympic Peninsula, who is single and childless, who owns, at my last estimate over $400,000US in plastic crack.
He has played nearly every game that WizKids has made (no Creepyfreaks at least) and keeps up with all of them AND is keeping up with all of the releases of the D&D and StarWars minis too.
The guy's only vice is gaming.
When he deploys, he always leaves a huge sum of funds with the game store of his choice to make sure that he gets his cases despite not being in-country at the set's release time.
Additionally, he has a building off-post to store the vast bulk of his stuff and only keeps his latest and greatest on post.
Meanwhile, he sees no need for Master Maze and just does paper terrain.
Granted he is not a Master Maze basher, but, believe it or not, he does say he cannot see how we all can spend so much on just terrain.
I just roll my eyes, shake my head and just do not say anything because he is so hooked on his plastic crack.

...

Now storage space...that is a serious consideration! I can definately see the appeal of 2D tiles such as Skeleton Key games, etc, just due to the amount of space a sizaable DF collection requires.

It is great that someone brought up Ed Bourelle's stuff - the eFuture & eAdventure Skeleton Key Games 2D terrain systems.
I honestly think he makes the best 2D modular terrain in the industry.
He does both sci-fi and fantasy along with terrain that can be used for both; the crying shame with Ed these days is that he is totally stuck in that Ptolus project he is a part of.
I do not think there will be any new sci-fi stuff out of him for the rest of the year and a fair portion of 2007.

What I really wish that Dwarven Forge did to extent that Ed has done is his cavern sets; there are eight of them and they cover many different situation.
With the release of MM025 Cavernous Lake, Dwarven Forge has come a really long way in achieving parity with Ed's stuff, but not quite there yet.
Maybe in 2008 or `09, yes?

She owes me a present - for our 22nd wedding anniversary (today!!) - so I am being allowed to buy that set - and a couple of other bits and pieces. Anything else will have to wait for the next time I'm due a present.
Congratulations on 22 years.
Our Seventeenth is coming up in a couple of weeks.
I can understand the potential present jubilation along with the personal appreciation of having a fine woman with each of us for so long.
Of course, once D&D goes to hexes - we're screwed.
This was a funny, right?
The perishableness of Master Maze with change, right?

I ask because I sometimes use hex stuff in my Master Maze now so I do not see a problem.
Oh well, humor.
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#16688
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
pf -

PLEASE don't give anyone at WotC any ideas!
All I need is to have 6 44"-tall stacks of white boxes and SF boxes, and 4 drawers of indie pieces, all turn obsolete all of a sudden!
And there're people out there who'd LOVE to do that to us.

Man, you DO know how to give a guy a heart attack.

By the way, about those R&P sets you tossed due to expiration? Thanks!

OUTTH! I jutht bit my tongue! Itth flapping around in my theek! Thit, that hurth!

Tho mutth for tongue in theek humor, huh?

Hey Phil! Happy Anniversary!! You're 11 years ahead of me and Sandy; keep up the good work!

See ya!

Jim
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#16689
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
Not hexes -- staggered grid.

That's where every other row is half a square out of alignment. You get six squares bordering every other square. Hexagonal movement, but nice straight lines to draw walls and doors and stuff.

I doubt that any conversion is likely -- the consensus among gamers I know is that hexes are great for outdoor settings, but when things move indoors they prefer a standard 1" grid.

There is no traditional anniversary gift specific to the 22nd anniversary, but the second anniversary is cotton, tenth anniversary is tin or aluminum, eleventh is steel, and twentieth is china. You can combine those any way you like, or start your own tradition. Is there any way we can convince our significant others that poly-resin counts as china?

EDIT: I just realized the futility of trying to create a personal tradition of what gift to give on a twenty-second anniversary. Doy.
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#16690
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
Perhaps we should make the tradition more generic ... not a specific 22nd anniversary item ...

Look at it this way, if our "better halves" like to get "jewelry" year after year, I see no problem with us getting "poly-resin" every year ...

OR, better yet, EVERY anniversary of note ... the anniversary of the first date, the first kiss, the first time meeting the in-laws, the first ... well, you get the idea.

Wow, I'm due for a first foot massage gift ... MBSs here I come :)
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#16691
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
NO, NO, NO, Myrthe!

C'mon, Mike, you KNOW you're supposed to get a foot massage BACK on the anniversary of that event!
I mean, SOME things are actually more important than DF . . . NO! DON'T HIT ME AGAIN!! I'm Sorry, I didn't mean it!!!

H-e-l-l-l-l-p-p-p-p!!!!! (fades down hallway, screaming...)


Jim
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#16692
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
Thanks for the good wishes folks! We've had a busy but enjoyable day - culminating in a cracking good WFRP2 session this evening. Stomping around Bogenhafen on the trail of a stolen jewel - lots of mystery and suspense.

Wonderful, wonderful Bogenhafen
Friendly old girl of a town
'Neath her tavern light
On this merry night
Let us clink and drink one down
To wonderful, wonderful Bogenhafen... (with apologies to Danny Kaye)

My wife (a.k.a. the Nutty Professor) is one in a million. Incredible woman, and I count myself so very fortunate to have her as my wife.

Phil
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Medieval Buildings Set, Caverns x2, Cavernous Passages, Room and Passage, Deluxe Room, Octagonal Room, Narrow Passages, Advanced Builder, Wicked Additions I, Wicked Additions II, Traps I, Traps II, lots of individual pieces. I want Cavernous Rivers, and Cavernous Lakes, and Cavernous Ledges. Can you tell that I like caverns?
 
#16693
Boy, some people are hostile 8 Years, 3 Months ago  
Wow - this thread had a ton of posts in just a day or less.
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62 sets and counting. In addition, a boatload of individual pieces or sets of pieces.
 
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