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Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?)
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TOPIC: Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?)
#7602
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 1 Month ago  
Rabidfox, have you checked out Heroscape yet? It's pre-painted miniatures on a hex battlegrid made of interlocking plastic pieces that can by assembled in different configurations with different elevations. It's a good game on its own, but the terrain is perfect for stuff like classic Battletech.
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#7603
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 1 Month ago  
Rabidfox, have you checked out Heroscape yet? It's pre-painted miniatures on a hex battlegrid made of interlocking plastic pieces that can by assembled in different configurations with different elevations. It's a good game on its own, but the terrain is perfect for stuff like classic Battletech.

Seen it - seen the price too - not enough there for me to throw $40, $30 on sale, at and feel good about it - still not buying despite the clamoring of my sons - they think the dragon is cool - plus they like some of the figs in the expansions packs.

The terrain I use for Classic BattleTech is the old Geo-Hex BattleScape stuff (the best 3D terrain ever made for BT playing beyond the maps) and custom made pieces design to fit in with the BattleScape pieces.
You may still be able to get the BattleScape stuff from Monday Knight Productions.
BattleScape takes you from the plains to the hills, up to the mountains, down to the seashore, under the earth and even downtown.
GREAT terrain for that hex-based game you own.
It is a great shame that KR got re-married, closed down Geo-Hex and moved on with his life to get away from GW to name only one stupid annoying problem.
MKP just does not have the life that Geo-Hex had.

Now folks, what about that gridless Master Maze idea?
Any takers?
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#7604
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 1 Month ago  
Well, I don't think DF is going to go gridless any time soon -- there's a real motivation to stay consistent, regardless of what the details are, most people want consistency (even you said you'd sell off your old stuff, implying that you wouldn't want mismatched pieces).

I doubt they'll want to re-sculpt their old catalogue, even if all it involves is tiny modifications to existing tooling. It would mean scrapping all unsold items as "out of date," for one thing.

I also think that the grid is a big advantage for RPGs. People who wargame may be used to the ruler/string/etc and feel the grid is unnecessary, but for RPGers, it's a real help. I and my players can know instantly that this is a 60x80' room, or that this ogre is 35' away from someone's favorite elf noble. It speeds up the game if we don't have to pause for measurements because we can instantly gauge most distances.

Plus, I've always felt DF did a great job hiding the grid. Maybe "hiding" is the wrong word -- "integrating" the grid. The floors would look a little bare without the "tiles," and the cavern pieces break them up effectively (even though there it's definitely a nod away from realism).

I think what was REALLY bugging people were the bowties, and they dropped those where they could -- in the SF sets and in DoE. For the regular sets, I think they've released so much they're locked in.

L
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#7605
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 1 Month ago  
Well, I don't think DF is going to go gridless any time soon -- there's a real motivation to stay consistent, regardless of what the details are, most people want consistency (even you said you'd sell off your old stuff, implying that you wouldn't want mismatched pieces).

It will not go gridless anytime soon for the very same reason there was no SF MM release in 2005 - money.
Pick up the financial assets of the company, and we would all see a great deal more of what we want to out of DF.

I would sell off all my old stuff L so as to have the financial assets (money) to replace it all.
Sort of the stellar lifecycle thing.
Actually L, it had nothing at all to do with mis-matched pieces at the core, but now that you mention it, I would definitely keep some, if not all, of the current SF MM I own so as to use it to denote a different area in a facility.
Instead of "mismatch", it would just be different.
That would work!

I doubt they'll want to re-sculpt their old catalogue, even if all it involves is tiny modifications to existing tooling. It would mean scrapping all unsold items as "out of date," for one thing.

Nah, it will not.
There will always be some purist who would want the "original" MM in its unevolved form.
I have ran into that attitude many times in gaming over the years, mostly though from RPG players now that I think about it.
There are people I have ran into just in the last year who are still playing only the 1st ed. of Traveller from the '70s despite the many improvements and progressions that universe has gone through over the years.
Oh well.

I also think that the grid is a big advantage for RPGs. People who wargame may be used to the ruler/string/etc and feel the grid is unnecessary, but for RPGers, it's a real help. I and my players can know instantly that this is a 60x80' room, or that this ogre is 35' away from someone's favorite elf noble. It speeds up the game if we don't have to pause for measurements because we can instantly gauge most distances.

Based on what you said, I can see how someone who does not really want to have to measure would like to keep the grid, but what does that really say about the player though.
Oh well.

Is speed at the cost of detail really worth it to gaming?
Companies try to mask this loss under the term of "increased playability".
At times with this current devolution of games that has been going on for almost ten years, one can wonder if the gravity of this movement will simply turn gaming into a blackhole and thereby a non-issue in ten more years or so.
Detail is a part of life and these games are art based on life; if you take the life out of games, where are you then except at void?
There is not much fun at void folks.

Plus, I've always felt DF did a great job hiding the grid. Maybe "hiding" is the wrong word -- "integrating" the grid. The floors would look a little bare without the "tiles," and the cavern pieces break them up effectively (even though there it's definitely a nod away from realism).

The Cavern MM pieces are where the grid needs to go away the most!
Humans love closed polygons so the grid can be forgivable in "human-made" structures that SF and Fantasy MM make, but with the Caverns?
UGH!!!.

I think what was REALLY bugging people were the bowties, and they dropped those where they could -- in the SF sets and in DoE. For the regular sets, I think they've released so much they're locked in.

L


Actually, the bow ties never bugged me any more than the grid.

Again, evolving on only requires funds, but then that is the current problem for all matters as things sit for DF's future anyway, right L?
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
#7606
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 1 Month ago  
Based on what you said, I can see how someone who does not really want to have to measure would like to keep the grid, but what does that really say about the player though.
Oh well.

Is speed at the cost of detail really worth it to gaming?
Companies try to mask this loss under the term of "increased playability".
At times with this current devolution of games that has been going on for almost ten years, one can wonder if the gravity of this movement will simply turn gaming into a blackhole and thereby a non-issue in ten more years or so.
Detail is a part of life and these games are art based on life; if you take the life out of games, where are you then except at void?
There is not much fun at void folks.


Well, I don't think it's quite so simple. It's easy enough to see that if there are rules for everything, and rules for the applications of those rules, and rules for those, the game would get bogged down. So it isn't a matter of saying that more rules and more detail is always good -- it's a matter of deciding where to draw the line.

That's not really the issue, though. We don't need to decide how much detail and how precise we are in our gaming for me to make my point.

I picked RPGs because they involve a lot of non-combat gaming where measurements don't play a role. (Not that measurements only matter for combat, but hopefully the point is clear) With RPGs, what you need to know about the game doesn't involve measurements. In wargaming, the physical things before you -- the table, the terrain, the figures -- ARE the game, and the rest is fluff. You simply can't play the game without the table and the pieces. In RPGs, the physical part is often just a cue for the gaming that's actually taking place purely in conversation -- and may RPG games take place without minis, without terrain, and without any physical aids other than dice and a few charts. Physical terrain and minis, that sort of thing helps for combat and related moments, but much of the time the DF I use in RPG sessions is for atmosphere and setting the right tone, as well as occasionally making some hard-and-fast detail-oriented rules clear.

That's why I said that the grid is nice for RPGs. It's not that we don't pay attention to measurements, it's that it is far less often a part of the game. When it is, it's important to know who is in front of whom, who is closer to what, who is blocked by what, and how far away everything is. Only some of that comes down to measuring. And, plus, my original point still holds -- you can instantly tell how big a room is, or how far something is. The grid makes that instant, it doesn't make it less precise. Just faster.

L
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#7607
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 1 Month ago  
RabidFox* wrote:
Based on what you said, I can see how someone who does not really want to have to measure would like to keep the grid, but what does that really say about the player though.
Oh well.


Details are fine, but in RPG's trying to reenact every detail can get things bogged down. Roleplayers like all sorts of systems, from pretty basic stuff (Tunnels and Trolls) to very complex games (Rolemaster, which had about 50 weapons cross indexed with 20 armor types for rolling damage. You needed a WHOLE book just to do damage)

I don't know what not wanting to measure things out and wanting speed instead of precise detail says about a player other then they have a different style from another player, which is certainly not a bad thing. I like the grids, 3.5 DnD is VERY compatible with the grids, and it makes combat and ranges much easier to figure out.

And it's not that we are idiots, three of us are high school teachers, another has an art degree, and then two engineers, between us all there are 4 masters degrees and a doctrate.

Maybe this is a poor analogy. but I'll float it out there.

Chess is a game devoid of realism compared to a wargame or RPG, but as a game is it timeless and certainly the best chess players in the world are among the elite of gamers.
It even has squares....

Rabid Fox, I think you are just on another level of gaming from many, certainly me, which is great. You have your priorities and expectations from a game and fellow gamers, but for me and mine, it's really just a diversion. We are those gamers who like to go into the dungeon to kill things just to kill things and get more power. I would not say we are casual gamers, I have over 1000 dollars in MM, and complete sets of 4 of the DnD mini's collections, and I'm one of the teachers mentioned above, so this is what I spend my disposable income on. (You know, as a teacher I make a pretty middle class living, the point is I don't have money to burn, this is my hobby)

Now, the question is, who does MM need to please most?

My opinion, is that the majority of MM buyers are roleplayers or skirmish gamers who use the grid on a regular basis, and would miss it if it were gone.

Someone could float a poll? It would be unscientific... but what the heck.

Robert

P.S. I certainly meant no offense by anything I wrote above[/quote]
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Robert
 
#7608
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 1 Month ago  
No offense taken celtchief.
Your tone here was quite different than that message.

As far as a middle-class income celtchief, that would truly depend on the state and what level of middle-class you are speaking of.
There are some states where some teachers are quite upper middle-class when it comes to their salaries and then you must also figure in the family situation, etc. as far a disposable income.
Then again, at this point that is all immaterial.
Nor do we need to get into a #$*^@ contest about who has spent more on gaming; the revelations could be quite shocking to some involved.

As far as chess is concerned, I gave it up years ago when it became no contest to beat people that were in my area that were ranked.
I moved on to things like Go and Kriegspiel to name only two Terran games and to things like Jetan as well.
I then became a bit obsessed with pieces needing to be able to actively and passively defend themselves so I moved on to traditional wargames.
I then translated this interest over time into fictional wargames and miniature-wargames of the science fiction variety since I prefer technology to magic.
Having gone back over the years to teach young cubs that old cats still know a good deal, I have continued with no joy or passion to place back into position those young cubs who think they can beat me at chess or even checkers.
Now checkers is a game of interesting permutations, and I get consistently beaten by this one literal midget who has been ranked in that game.
Blast, he is good; fortunately, I can still beat him in chess.
Anyway, some of the best chess players I know crack in the face of the demands of wargaming; there is absolutely no guarantee that a chess master can become a good war leader due to the minutiae that such provides in the face of such a player who has no depth for it.

Moving on, I think that most of the answers to your poll would fall on the the RPG side of things that you desire them to.
Why?
Because DF has not really tried hard or much at all to reach the wargamers, whether at the skirmish or mass combat levels, so the overwhelming majority of respondents on this forum would be RPGers.
I am among an odd significant minority in wargaming - I fight under and inside, not just out and about and around.
Many wargames do not even have rules for close quarter combat within structures and the added complexity of fighting in such an environment is usually quite ignored.
So, until the day that there is a majority of forum members that are wargamers, like maybe on Ragnarok, I guess we will just continue putting along with our grids.
Yes?

Anyway, interior furnishings will be important to reach the wargamer and even many of the RPGers out there and so far they have not been forthcoming.
It would be interesting to see how high sales of DF product would go if DF made a greater effort to reach the wargaming population.
Additionally, those who actually want furnishings the most in their layouts may be those very RPGers you are looking for support from.

Its late.
Read y'all later.
RabidFox*
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SF: Starter(3), Passage(2), Alpha(7), Beta(2) someday soon;
Cavern: Cavern, Cavernous Passages, many individual pieces, Cavernous River & Wall and Cavernous Lake someday soon;
Fantasy: Room & Passages, Room, Octagonal Room, Wicked Additions I&II, Adv. Builder, Diagonal Walls Set, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture, many individual pieces.
 
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