Welcome, Guest
Please Login or Register.    Lost Password?

Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?)
(1 viewing) (1) Guest
Go to bottomPage: 123
TOPIC: Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?)
#7578
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
Typically I enjoy the on-line company of my fellow Dragonsfoot.org posters but there's one thing that always floors me. Whenever the discussion of "dungeon terrain" comes up, I always like to put in a good word for Dwarven Forge (duh!), and it never ceases to amaze me some of the downright angry responses I've seen people post:

"It's too expensive! I'd never use that stuff! Who uses that? Some lunatic with bottomless pockets? Cardstock is so much better 'cause it's cheaper and I can print it out over and over!"

"It's too clunky! Who can cart that stuff all over? You'd need a van just to carry around any decent amount! Can you roll your precious Dwarven Forge up and stick it in a backpack like I can my vinyl mat? I thought not!"

"The scale is ALL WRONG. In AD&D, you should be able to get three medium sized humanoids across and able to fight in a corridor. You can't with Dwarven Forge! Two at best!"

Of course, I can't help but answer these when they come up...firstly, DF is NOT expensive compared to other entertainment expenditures. How many times can you see a movie when you go out to it? Okay, what did you spend? $30 at the movies? If you see two movies in a year with a friend or SO and you buy, and you get popcorn and a drink and it's not a matinee, you just spent the cost of a Dwarven Forge set on a pair of non-repeatable outings. Four movies and you've got a major set and some accessories. Secondly, anyone who's ever actually taken the time to examine Dwarven Forge items should know that the "cornerstone" sets like the Rooms & Passages set are super-flexible. The stuff you can do with even a small amount of Dwarven Forge is pretty amazing. So that doesn't wash with me. And card-stock? Please. Don't get me started. Yeah, it looks all pretty on the websites of the folks who sell it. But you know what? They went to professional printing companies and had their cardstock printed out, they put colored lights on it, and throw in some CGI backgrounds. Of course it looks "just as good" under those circumstances! Now put it on your formica-topped kitchen table and tell me it looks that spiffy. Oh, and best of luck if you spill something during the game! Finally, who says you have to go blow $2000 on it all at once? That's how much I have but I've collected it over four years.

Clunky? Who doesn't keep their DF boxes? They're the perfect carrying cases! Plus, I'd like to plug the new foam trays; the "bottom of this tray is the top of the lower tray" idea? BRILLIANT. Kudos to Stefan, Jeff and crew! Furthermore all it takes is a little planning on the DM's part. Take the stuff for rooms and passages that you know you'll need! C'mon people, it ain't rocket science.

Scale problems? D&D isn't a wargame. It isn't about "who's on exactly so-and-so square" (at least the older versions aren't, going back to but not including the original '73 edition of Chainmail). So you can't cram three orcs in a row up front. So what? Tell the players "You're three abreast up front, and so are those orcs" and go with it.

So, has anyone else come up against "Dwarven Forge Hostility"? (Or perhaps it's "Dwarven Forge envy")
TheDungeonDelver
Orc
Posts: 284
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Orlando, Florida
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Too much Dwarven Forge to list!
 
#7579
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
The only downside that I can relate to is that of the pricing. It is high, BUT like all things in life, you get what you pay for. Want the best? It comes with a high price.

Carstock as an alternative isn't even comparable.

Scale? Such a thing is relevant in a fantasy or Sci-Fi setting? Come on, now.

Clunky? Of course! Flexibility has its cost. And besides, you can easily fit in quite a few sets in the trunk of a car, more than enough for an evening's gaming. Not to mention that the product is very well protected in its cases.

Are there downsides to DF? Sure. Reasons for hostility? Not so much.

Alkatchoff
Alkatchoff
Goblin
Posts: 58
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Ottawa, On
The administrator has disabled public write access.
We put the fear in their hearts. Our swords soon followed.
 
#7580
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
I don't know for sure if this is the correct analysis, but I have a feeling that a lot of these really hostile reactions very often mask an internal struggle that comes down to: "I can't get this stuff for some reason, either because it is too expensive or will take up too much of my time, or it will put off some other person if I get into it."

In order to justify any decision of _not_ getting into something, or doing something, you have to get really hostile. That stuff must simply be really bad and you then try to find as many negative aspects as possible.
willypold
Orc
Posts: 397
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
The administrator has disabled public write access.
 
#7581
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
I Guess it Comes down to the Priorities of a Given Group of Gamers... I Do not Like to Move all of My Gaming Stuff around Over Much anyway, So Ideally The Gamers Can Go to the Place where the Gear is Stored to Play with it...

There are Many Benefits to using 2D "Tiles", and Vinyl Mats, I Love and Use Both... But it really is a Matter of Function... What does the Given Group want to use? What Resorces are Available Etc...

I Have Not Seen Over Much "Hostile" Reaction to DF Really, and Most of the Detracters seem to Site Cost as a Major Motivator... BUT I HAVE NEVER, seen anyone Play a Game using DF turn around and Say that it is Anything But Great Terrain...
MyLordVoid
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 2552
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Florida... (The One in North A
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"To Succeed We Attack!"
 
#7582
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
I don't know for sure if this is the correct analysis, but I have a feeling that a lot of these really hostile reactions very often mask an internal struggle that comes down to: "I can't get this stuff for some reason, either because it is too expensive or will take up too much of my time, or it will put off some other person if I get into it."

In order to justify any decision of _not_ getting into something, or doing something, you have to get really hostile. That stuff must simply be really bad and you then try to find as many negative aspects as possible.


Me thinks you might have something there my dear Watson!
brvheart
Ogre
Posts: 973
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Gender: Male Location: San Antonio, TX Birthday: 08/20
The administrator has disabled public write access.
 
#7583
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
I've certainly run into that reaction. I agree on both counts about money -- A) it's why people get hostile, and B) they're wrong to say it's so expensive.

Here's one other way of seeing the cost for what it truly is: some of the more prestige minis easily cost $20-50, with the truly high end stuff topping out at $100.

That's something that looks EXACTLY the same a year later. Meanwhile, a $70-100 DF investment can feel totally new every time you put it out.
Can you imagine what it would be like if, in a year or so, your entire set of D&D minis had new sculpts and stats? Even that wouldn't be as good, since you'd be giving up the original stuff. No, DF can't be beat here -- you can turn it into something entirely new each time, OR you can keep it the same. No other gaming product is so versatile, and that feeds right into the cost IMHO. You buy one $60 set, and it's feeling new for YEARS.


Plus, every new DF set brings the older ones back to life. Put together and paint up an Orc army or a set of adventurers, and they'll sit there. In a few months, you'll be painting up an elf army or you'll want some new party members, and the old stuff will be shelved and get dusty. But buy a new DF set, and you crack out all your old stuff, to see how they'll work together. Heck, after I got the SF sets I was taking out my caverns to see how they'd look on the same table!

So the cost not only includes price-per-piece, which is comparably low-end, but also how long the stuff retains its "new" feel, how long it still is useful, how much you can do with it. There's really no comparison.

The only thing that even comes close is Hirst Arts, but there's no comparing the products. Even if you really like making your own terrain, you have to make a LOT of HA stuff before the same amount of money produces more stuff -- and HA is always brought up to me as a cheaper option.

L
Law
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 3258
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"In every real man a child is hidden that wants to play."

-- F. Nietzsche
 
#7584
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
Money and lack of flexibility are the two issues I always see come up as negatives with DF, but I just don't buy it. Books are $40 each in a lot of cases. CMG rares are anywhere from $10 to $50. Battlemats are $20. Even a set of dice will set you back $10. It's an expensive hobby. It always has been and probably always will be.

As for flexibility, I think people just aren't using their imaginations, which in this industry, is more than a little ironic.

Lucky for us, we know better. :)
Yukon Cornelius
Ogre
Posts: 674
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Right behind you
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Visit my: Website
 
#7585
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
I'm actually going to drop in here an defend Cardstock for a minute, i use BOTH, DF and Card Stock, and they actually can work Really well together, i have in the past (in my D&D game not SW), used both Card Stock and DF (the Card Stock was mine the DF some one elses) and it worls great, and even now in my SW games, i am using Card stock in some of the pictures you see me put up, mainly for the scenery bits, i have actually held back doing so for some odd reason, like i feel i would be betraying DF by putting more of the card stock items into the set ups, as of now i just use it for some of the computer things, and tables etc becuase it is one of the best and cheapest sources to get it, and one of the few "Sci-Fi" things out there.

I like both Card Stock and Dwarven forge, both have unique uses, and strenghts and qualities, and can really be used together, one of the interesting things i noted was that one of the Card Stock compaines products was the exact same height, and the walls were the same width as DF (the floors were a little different, the Card stock being lower but it actually made a nice step effect) and i have used them together.

And from using Card stock the people who say that it is cheaper are deluding themsleves, as both L and YC point out, the whole darn thing is expensive, you tend to make up for the cheap base product in Cards stock with the costs of Ink, and Card stock paper and Glue, and TIME. In many cases it is like the Hirst Arts argument. It is so much a time sink, while quicker than Hirst arts, becuase you print, cut score and glue, and your done, no painting required it does take time, and the more you do the better you get.

I really like both and think people who objectivly look at it see both have thier places, i know when i made a Scale model of the PC's space ship it took about 2 weeks, and cost about $20 in ink, and maybe $5 in paper, (i borrowed the transperincy paper from work, but we are now out, so next time i'd have to buy that, and that is around $15 for about 30 sheets from what i saw when i was pricing a whiel back) then their is the $6 for Foam core, and the $2 for glue, not to mention the cost of X-acto knives, rulers, cutting mat, etc etc etc, sure some are one time purchases) but the Barloz since it was the first big project i did coast about $45 in parts, not even going to guess labor.
Hey that's a pre sale DF set. Yes it is the size of about 4 DF sets so cheaper, in that respect 1/4 the cost, but it is static, and and it took about 2 freakin weeks to do it. One of the reasons i Love DF, it's out of the Box... they are both good and neither one is really cheaper than the other if you factor in the costs of labor and other stuff.
Ghenghis Ska
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 2373
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Northeast CT, USA
The administrator has disabled public write access.
More Sci Fi Please, request a DEAD END for Sci Fi Passages
Classes of the Old Republic
Some RPG and mini stats including the Exodus and AAT (along with good source of a Mini scale version of the AAT).
 
#7586
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
Generally making stuff yourself is a cheaper option than premade. You are taking the labor costs out of it. Me, I don't have the talent nor the patience for Hirst Arts stuff. That and I find what I have bought of it premade isn't as durable.
Yes, DF is expensive and has a lot of flexibility issues. This hasn't stopped me from buying a ton of it though! Due to this it has a limited appeal. And I agree that the hobby is getting rather expensive. These collectable minis are reduculous AFAIC. I won't buy them. Even Reaper is getting rediculous. Think I will stick to dice for my monsters from here on out.
brvheart
Ogre
Posts: 973
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Gender: Male Location: San Antonio, TX Birthday: 08/20
The administrator has disabled public write access.
 
#7587
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
How, exactly, is Reaper getting "ridiculous"?

Say what you want about WotC's collectible minis or the overpriced offerings of Citadel, but Reaper have always had great bang for the buck, fantastic customer relations, and now they've branched out with some absolutely amazing paints.
TheDungeonDelver
Orc
Posts: 284
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Orlando, Florida
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Too much Dwarven Forge to list!
 
#7588
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
Reaper did, have you seen their new prices? They are up almost 100%. Minis that were $3.99 are now $6.99.
brvheart
Ogre
Posts: 973
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Gender: Male Location: San Antonio, TX Birthday: 08/20
The administrator has disabled public write access.
 
#7589
Hostile reactions to Dwarven Forge (?!?) 9 Years, 4 Months ago  
Yeah, Reaper's prices HAVE gone up. They've acknowledged it on their site, attributing it (most likely honestly) to the rising cost of materials.

Most Reaper figs used to hover around $2.50 where I got them, back in 2001 or 2002. Now they are usually closer to $5. And the larger beasties, which used to be around $12-15, now cost around $18-20.

I still love Reaper, and they're still the best bang for your buck in the minis world, but the days of $2-3 minis seem to have finally ended.

On the plus side, there is no imaginable way I could find any room for new minis at this point anyway. The chief advantage of the prepainted ones, AFAIC, is that I can toss them all in a shoebox without worrying about paint scraping, pike bending, or bases falling off. Slapping 50 minis in a small space without worrying about condition is a HUGE compensation for the negative aspects of preplastic painted minis.

L
Law
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 3258
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"In every real man a child is hidden that wants to play."

-- F. Nietzsche
 
Go to topPage: 123