Welcome, Guest
Please Login or Register.    Lost Password?

Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming
(1 viewing) (1) Guest
Go to bottomPage: 123
TOPIC: Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming
#3355
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
I know i can't be the first to bring this up, but I simply don't see how people here use Mastermaze in gaming. I used to have about a dozen sets of it, mainly for display. When I tried to use it for D&D, I got so frustrated I put it all up on eBay. All of the minis I use for D&D are in 1" square bases, which is pretty industry standard.

The end came when I needed to make a 10'x10' room. That has got to be a common room sizes in a dungeon. The wall pieces only offer 5'x2.5' of space (due to the wall taking up a quarter of the floor). So in my 10'x10' room, I should be able to put 4 standard minis inside. Obviously this isn't possible, as 4 corner pieces put together can only hold 2 minis. But even larger rooms had this same problem. No one can fight against the back wall. You can't have a 16 man brawl in a 20'x20' room.

How does everyone here get around this huge limitation? Why can't DF make a plus-sized version of their product for those of us who wanna use regular sized minis in average sized rooms (I had no problem running combat in HUGE 50'x50' rooms, but most of the rooms in my dungeons are in the 10-20' range).

Any comments?
guslandt
Goblin
Posts: 25
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Denton, TX
The administrator has disabled public write access.
3 Den of Evil Room & Passage sets : 1 Den of Evil Room set : 1 Den of Evil wicked additions set
 
#3356
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
To tell you the truth, I think I agree with you. I don't use MM for gaming, I use it for display and model photography. I think it has real limitations as a gaming tool, unfortunately.

I think the scale issues have been complicated by the trend towards larger figures in recent years. When MM began, in like 1999 or so, things were different.

You say 1" bases are "industry standard," and you're right. But they didn't used to be. Reaper figures, which are already closer to 28 or even 30mm, tend to have smaller bases than that. And older figures from 1996 or before tend to have much smaller bases and to be smaller figures.

But Reaper figs are big, and GW figs are getting bigger (new Sauruses are bigger than old Sauruses, new Chaos warriors are bigger than old ones, the new Space Marines due later in the year will be larger, etc) and the new "official D&D figs" all have bigger bases than Grenadier or Ral Partha figs did. Even Reaper is still slightly smaller, except for Warlord.

So basically, when MM began, figs were smaller. As time passed, they got bigger, and MM could either grow or stay consistent so people didn't feel they were being asked to re-purchase their whole collections in a new scale.

I wonder if a large-size scale would sell, or what affect it would have on the older stuff. But I do know that it doesn't seem likely -- plans in motion seem largely directed towards staying consistent with what's already out there.

L
Law
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 3193
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"In every real man a child is hidden that wants to play."

-- F. Nietzsche
 
#3357
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
I'm a long time gamer (gaming for 22 years, since I was 14). Most of my figs are 25 mm scale, but a few years ago, when the bigger figs came out, they really looked bad next too my other figs, so I have to be careful what I get. The DnD minis are close to scale, but the GW stuff, forget it. Why can't the indrustry just stick with one scale size so everything is compatible??
KenM
Orc
Posts: 263
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Hyannis Mass, USA.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Deluxe room and passage. Ogres den. Short passage. Room and passage. Fantasy Floor. Traps 1. Traps 2. Wicked additions 1+2. Orc war band, Dungeon Accessories, Medieval Furniture. Treasure and Magic Items. DoE set. DoE room set. DoE WA. DoE HS. Cavern set. Cavernous passage. Caverous chasm. ABS 2. RotA 1+2. ROTA ent. MBS. MBS exp. Tavern set.
 
#3358
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
I Guess Once Again I Am In a Slightly Different Situation as I Use a lot of 1/72nd Scale Minis For Sci-Fi/ Dark Future Gameing (Which is Much Closer to True 25mm, and Even a Bit Smaller), Personally I Have had Issues with GW's Larger Figs From the Begining, their Awkwardness Goes beyond Large Bases, As Many of Their Dramatic Poses tend to extend Arms, Legs and Weapons well beyond their Bases, And even in terms of Detail I have issues with Weapons in particular being ridiculously Oversized which lends a sense of Comic Book perspective to me... As Far as DF Goes I Like Larger Rooms anyway, but the Biggest Problem in my Opinion has little to do with DF, but rather that we are all used to Calling a 1.00" Square 5 Foot on the Ground when it probably ought to be something less convieniently Round Numbered like 3.75' or something... So that a 2" Square Section of Floor would be perhaps 7.5 Feet Accross and a Floor Section with a Wall Covering roughly 1/2 of a Square would be Like 5.65 Foot accross Which is a lot more "Logical" But we have been trying to Say that 1" = 5' for so long that we get hung up on it in my opinion... Fact is a "Real-Life" 10" Square room is Really pretty Small when you start Swinging a Sword around or Dancing or Something and more than Two people in such a Space Gets Crowded Quick... I Love Battle Mats but they have Spoiled me for being able to "Fudge" Miniatures Fitting into a Space that is too Small for them because there are no Arms to get in the way... Now that having Been said, I have Two Comments on this Subject:


1) I am not Sure that the Wall Sections were ever Intended to be Fully 2" of Usable Floor anyway, since if they were then we Could NOT use them as interior walls, because they would be Larger then the 2" Square Floor Pieces they might replace...

2) If number One above is observed... Then it stands to reason that these sections of Wall actually offer sort of a Bonus 1/2" of breathing Room along the Wall, which for anyone who has ever been Packed tightly into an over crowded room is really nice to have... So these wall sections are actually 1/2 inch Too Big and I'll take it...

3) If DF suddenly Changed their Scale by Say Doubling the Size of Everything We would Still have the same issues if you Call 1" of Floor space 5 feet...

4) If DF did find some way to Make DF Larger and it Kept me From Using my Current Collection in some way I Would Cry Foul for not Supporting Their own product line...

Fact is, had DF Started out by Making say 4"x4" Floor sections (Ala' Caverns), we would all have questioned why we Could only have 20 Foot Square rooms and nothing smaller like 5' or 10'... All the While Gripeing because we only Got 3.5" of Usable Floor Space... So my Conclusion is this: the Flaw lies not with DF or it's Design, but with The Scale we have all agreed to Honor of 1'=5Ft... And also in the Inconcistency of Miniatures in terms of Size to Scale... So my Solution is this, Come up with a Basic allowence of room for error, Call 1" what ever seems Appropriate (Probably around 3Ft) and Enjoy the Beautiful Toys that DF has made available to us...
MyLordVoid
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 2552
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Florida... (The One in North A
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"To Succeed We Attack!"
 
#3359
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
Some great points! MyLordVoid, I'll have to give your ideas some serious thought. We DID try using the MM at a scale of 1"=2.5', and that worked great for combats. However, when we tried to build more than 1 or 2 rooms at a time on the game table, we QUICKLY ran out of both room and MM! Using it on a scale somewhere between 2.5' and 5' is something I'll have to explore.

What I would really like to see is a new DF product like "Extended Walls & Corners", where the wall & corner peices are not positioned on top of the floor, but along side like the corridor peices are. This wouldn't force anyone to buy new stuff, would provide everyone with new building opportunities, and would give us DMs who like smaller rooms the ability to make them.

Another new product I think DF should explore would be making their current sets in scale for Mage Knight bases (1.5"). I would use those for both D&D gamign and Mage Knight Dungeons. I tried the plastic Mage Knight Dungeons Tiles, but the little plasitic posts that hold the walls in broke off constantly! :(
guslandt
Goblin
Posts: 25
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Denton, TX
The administrator has disabled public write access.
3 Den of Evil Room & Passage sets : 1 Den of Evil Room set : 1 Den of Evil wicked additions set
 
#3360
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
MyLordVoid has some great things to say about this issue. I guess I have a different perspective on the size/scale of the DF pieces that I'd like to share. Like Ken, I too have been gaming for a long time--23 years. However, in that time, I've learned that the industry caters to what sells and sometimes what sells doesn't always work with what has been established as a "standard" (i.e. "25mm"). It has taken a long time for me to finally just give up on getting angry about the slowly growing scale of figures and adapt to what's available.

I don't really have very many problems with using my figures (ranging from true 25mm to 30+mm) with the DF sets. Sure, sometimes a figure (like my huge minotaur) might not fit in the corridors of certain areas but you know what? I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal as I can come up with a hundred reasons why he shouldn't be there in the first place. That's (IMHO) where fantasy and good DM'ing come into play. You really have to let go and use your imagination and creativity rather than worry too much about scale and sticking to modules and what not. I've never really been one to "stay inside the lines" in my life so I guess that's why I'm not too hung up on which figures work best with which pieces. Please don't misinterpret that as me saying that some people here are too hung up on that--that's not what I'm saying at all. I guess what I'm encouraging is for people to step back for a second and realize "Hey, come to think of it, nothing in fantasy gaming matches 100% to what it would be in real life (no matter who makes the pieces) so why not just have fun with it?" Does that make sense?

I've found that there are often two camps of FRPGers: The "stick-by-the-book (or module) type", and the "Rules and modules are just guidelines--let's adlib for more fun" type. Each is fine. However, I've also found that when you try to stick to a rule/module/standard too much, you run into problems like the 10'x10' room issue that guslandt brought up.

You guys have started a great topic here and I'm glad to be able to be a part of it. Hopefully my advice will influence a few to try to be more flexible and not be too concerned with the exact scale and/or measurements!

-Dante
Dante
Ogre
Posts: 855
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: The 9th Circle and Climbing...
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"Thus it is willed where everything may be
simply if it is willed."

Dante's Inferno Canto III (77-80)
 
#3361
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
Guslandt,

Thanks... And I agree 2.5Ft per Inch was a Little too Big for us also, this would make Walls 5 Foot High and The average True 25mm Mini about 5'3'' or something... I Guess the Point I was really making was that we get really hung up on a scale that is not that Acurate to begin with...

As to Running out of DF, or Room to lay it out I have to say that I can run into that anyway...<Smirk>... But since I have limited space to work in these days anyway, I am more likely to set up "BIG" encounter areas with DF and Leave the Dungeon Crawl to the Battle Mat anyway... Of Course in my Fantasy World I Would Have Plenty Of Room and an Unlimited Supply Of DF and other Doo-dads...<Grin>...

As to The Idea of an "Outer" or Extended Wall and Corner set as You Called them, does have merit and could be very usefull, especially where walls were being used to define say a castle wall or the exterior wall of a Building... But I Like Being able to use all of my walls anywhere in my layout, and not let on to my Players rather they are in an Outer or inner room...

If DF were to Produce a 1.5" Product I am Sure that it would See Use... But I Would Be One of the Folks Who Would Be Sad if I were Expected to Repurchase Every Thing I had already bought in order to make use of New Larger Grid Pieces... And to be Honest I do not Use the Grid on the DF stuff (Or my Battle Mat for that Matter), for Measurement... I use a Range finder... (Ironically it is a GW Red Ruler-stick)...<Chuckle>... I Guess GW was Good for that at least...
Guest
Ogre
Posts: 0
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
The administrator has disabled public write access.
 
#3362
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
Sorry Got TImed Out, but that was Me...
MyLordVoid
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 2552
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Florida... (The One in North A
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"To Succeed We Attack!"
 
#3363
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
I think these are all great points that are being raised.

To clarify some of what I said before, while I do think MM is a bit cumbersome as a gaming tool, I don't think the scale issue is the biggest problem.

If scale is REALLY a problem, you could always say something like "This orc stands for two orcs right next to each other for now" until the battle thins out the ranks a bit.

No, scale is more of a problem for display -- figures that tower over the doorways, etc.

Gaming is made challenging partly by price, bc you need a LOT of sets before you can really use MM for games. That can be offset by buying sets collectively for a gaming group, everyone buys one set and the group ends up with 6-10 sets without anyone going broke.

But it is also offset by the simple fact that most dungeons are going to have at least one or two elements that simply can't be built with MM. I'm a huge fan of Dragonlance, and I doubt I could use MM to make Xak-Tsaroth or Pax Tharkas or the High Clerist Tower or the Tower of High Sorcery or any number of other key settings.

That's offset by the option of putting the horse before the cart and making adventures around what MM can do rather than vice versa.

There are ways to overcome all difficulties, but I still think of MM as more of a fantastic scene-creator and mood-setter more than an actual part of the game. I've used it occasionally, but only to a limited extent, for brief, compact encounters.

L
Law
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 3193
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"In every real man a child is hidden that wants to play."

-- F. Nietzsche
 
#3364
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
L,


I Have to Agree Strongly with your 2nd to last Point in Particular, as it has been a long time since I have used a Premade Module I generaly Write my Own Adventures (For other than D&D), and so it is Easy to Customize my Layouts in order to utilize the Tools I actually Have available to me... Were I Trying to Acurately Recreate a Published D&D Module I would probably have a lot less interest in MM... As it is I Feel that unless it is absolutely essential for Monster Strategy (Like perhaps some of the Areas in Undermountain for instance), that it is always within the DMs' discretionary powers to redesign, or even omit any areas of an adventure that they Deem unsuitable... In Short, (Yea Right... <Chuckle>...), GMs' Need to feel comfortable making Judgement Calls about what if anything is useful from any resource... And maybe I am just stubborn but I Don't see much of Anything as off limits to my altering or reinterpreting, so if When I Get Back into D&D, (Seriously Thinking about Investing in 3.5), I Find a New Module that is not MM Compliant I will feel no Shame nor Guilt in Re-writing portions of an Adventure to Suit the Tools I have at my disposal...

And as for the Use of MM as sets for Pictures, I Agree with the Tiny Door to Figure Issue... The Mixed Plus Side to that is that the New Doors are Much Taller by Looking at the Preview, Unfortunatley that also means that the Doorways appear to be significantly taller than the Walls, So Making Loft like areas Like in your Very Kewl Pics will require some differing strategies...
MyLordVoid
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 2552
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Florida... (The One in North A
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"To Succeed We Attack!"
 
#3365
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
Hi,

I'm relatively new to MM, and only have a couple of sets, but it strikes me that the 'obvious' way to get around the problem of the wall pieces having half-squares on the edges is to use the vertices of the squares rather than the squares themselves as the point of measurement/movement - so each figure gets placed on the intersection of the squares. Then, the smallest possible room (made up of four corner pieces?), which measures (externally) 4" square has room to hold 9 figures on 25mm square (or round) bases, rather than the 4 it would hold if you stood the figures in the centre of the squares.

In other words, you treat the example above as being a 3" square room, rather than a 4" square one.

Phil
philhendry
Orc
Posts: 206
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Lancaster, UK.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
Medieval Buildings Set, Caverns x2, Cavernous Passages, Room and Passage, Deluxe Room, Octagonal Room, Narrow Passages, Advanced Builder, Wicked Additions I, Wicked Additions II, Traps I, Traps II, lots of individual pieces. I want Cavernous Rivers, and Cavernous Lakes, and Cavernous Ledges. Can you tell that I like caverns?
 
#3366
Maze scale is simply too small to use for gaming 9 Years, 8 Months ago  
Philhendry,

Welcome... And I Think I understand what you are Talking about, But I Still Think that the Issues of Base Size and Shape (Highly Variable), and the Various "Exspansive" poses of some of the Larger Figures make it unrealistic to Expect the 1"=5Ft issue to be resolved so easily... And Honestly with Small enough Figures You Can get a Fair number of Pieces in a Small Space, My 1/72 Scale Figs for instance as I Can get 2-3 in a 1" Square pretty easily, and it would Still be somewhat logical in terms of people standing next to eachother in a 5Ft area (I actually Use a 1"=2meters with these smaller Figures), But Put a Beefy GW Orc Champion or some such in that area and it will darn near fill the Room... Now I Do not have My Gear in front of me to test your Idea, But it would be Kewl if You Could Post a Pic of what you are Describeing and this would also give us a better Idea of What Type and Size Minis you are talking about...
MyLordVoid
Minotaur Lord
Posts: 2552
User Offline Click here to see the profile of this user
Location: Florida... (The One in North A
The administrator has disabled public write access.
"To Succeed We Attack!"
 
Go to topPage: 123
Your Cart:
0 Items Order Total: $0.00

0 Product
$0.00



Login to see your account info

Once you login you will be able to see your different account areas here, order history, shipping information and your account information.