What Can We Improve for KS6?

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Rabbit Burner
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:56 am

its interesting reading different peoples point of view and seeing how they use their Dwarvenite.

For us our builds tend to be big with a 6x4 foot pawprint ;)

So lots of pieces needed, but we like lots of variety too - not keen on everything looking the same which becomes really apparent on a big build.

So for us to produce pieces using 3D printers at the amount we would need would take a huge amount of effort and to get the equivalents of a DF KS Pledge would probably take over a year of non-stop printing. Also the detail will not be as defined (yet).

Having said that I think 3D printers are great for accent pieces and to add some variety so it is something we are very interested in, but in the short to medium term I do not see 3d printing being an alternative to a DF KS. Its also a lot less fun!
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by dice4hire » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:09 am

That is a valid concern, as 3D printing is really taking off. Personally I do not want to go that cheap for terrain, as I really like how dwarvenite feels and acts on the table. Lighter plastics just do not impress me as much.

I have argued the opposite, but I can really see benefits to producing as wide a variety of pieces though. We shall see how KSVI handles things in only 6 short months!!!
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by bernyleung » Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:49 pm

To be honest, I'm not sure how many more years this current business model of DF will have. It will really depend on how technology will advance to make an alternative product of comparable quality cheaper and faster. This might be home 3D printing, it might be something else. I would say if you like the product as it is, then maximize your collections now. We might rue the day (or celebrate?) when Dwarvenite goes the way of resin....

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by Rabbit Burner » Tue Jan 09, 2018 8:01 am

period3 wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 8:51 pm
Rabbit Burner wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 4:27 am
Not sure why DF should restrict their artistry because buyers get tempted to pledge over their budget.
...because it's cheaper? Fewer molds costs less, and those savings can be passed on to the backers. I suspect most backers are not getting everything they want (by a long shot), they're just running out of money. If you halve the number of molds and cut the price, I think backers will still pledge just as much. Some backers might bemoan having less variety, others will be happy to get more product for their dollar.
DF want to make all the pieces they decide that will go into a Kick-starter (which is already not all the sculpts they produce in development) - the reason put forward not to do all the pieces is that it costs too much for backers to afford to get them all or all the pieces they want.
The costs of molds it seems is not the prime driver, DF want to make the molds that they want and get enough backing to make.

What I think people are saying is that DF subsidise the molds for less popular or 'low yield' pieces with those for popular or 'high yield' pieces. So they should remove those 'low yield' pieces that wont make money in favour of dropping the price to backers of those 'high yield' pieces that will make money.

If DF decide only to make molds that will pay for themselves then the choice would be more limited.

But DF are about producing cool terrain that they and we want to see on our tables, otherwise we could have relatively boring Kick-starters (KS1/2 style) where they offer a few pieces that can be mass produced maximising profit and allegedly giving more value for money - Note for us value for money is in providing what we want not just cheap.

It is interesting how people have different ideas on what could be done to either help backers or DF, all generally have merit but are generally defined by individual backer needs.

Personally if I were DF I would be happy when criticism is 'we cant afford to buy everything' rather than 'is that all?'

The one point that has been made which we think is valid is the restocking of all pieces financed during the Kick-starters in the retail shop. If (as is often the case) backers feel that the only way they can guarantee getting all that they want is during the kick-starter then it puts greater pressure of backers to go over budget (though that is still backer choice).

So to help us backers DF need to give retail buyers the option to buy all KS pieces (KS exclusives removed) and to show stock status. At the moment it seems that some of the castle items are not displayed in the shop at all - have not verified this, just impression of feedback on the DF forum.

We of the Flaming Bunny clan are all for the status quo to continue :) in DF we trust.
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kitenerd » Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:13 am

I agree with dice4hire... fewer molds means WAY greater economy of scale and much deeper discounts for backers. We have beat this horse to death. DF is not interested in maximizing profit. Stefan finally has the team and the resources to get all the toys he has ever dreamed of and he can't make them fast enough Bless him, and hang on for the ride... I would manage my business differently, but i am happy to support his cause i love this stuff!

As for Reaper - the KS deals are ridiculously good. The last one is the first time i actually got a core, because i wanted so much of it it did not make sense not to. Lets not forget that the prices are much higher at retail because of packaging and inventory management. I suspect that the blister costs damn near as much as the mini, but that is what you need to sell individually/retail.
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by dice4hire » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:44 am

Yeah, it is different. I know a lot of people like having a huge variety of DF pieces, but I tend towards wanting larger numbers of pieces. Sometimes I do not wantto play with tons of fiddly bits and jsut wantto lay out bbasic designs quickly. I guess I can do both, I jsut tend towards wanting mroe basic pieces.

I doubt I will ever get another bones core set as there are tons of things I do not want. But the value is so crazy it is frequently worth buying a set that has only half stuff you want. For example the adventurer's sub-core set now is 25 figures for 25 bucks. Considering they will be 3 bucks retail at least, if you only want 8 figures, it is not a bad deal. If you want 12-15 it is a great deal even if 10 or more figs never get painted or even looked at again.

I certainly do admit I enjoy ogling the pieces DF makes, even if I will not get them and don't like them taking the place of pieces I could get more of.
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kodiakbear » Tue Jan 09, 2018 3:17 am

dice4hire wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:02 am
For me, there is little incentive to buy DF in the KS. I do wonder if fewer pieces might allow a better deal during the KS.
I stopped buying very many Bones from the KS because there are so many sculpts I do not want included in each set.


I guess it just show our different buying patterns even with shared interests.


dice4hire wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:02 am
Bones molds are brought to the USA after the KS so they can make additional models there.
I am glad to hear that is now happening. Last time I heard anything official all they were making in the US was bases.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by dice4hire » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:02 am

Well, the big thing with that argument is how many pieces fit on a mold or how big a mold even is. I suspect Reaper molds are a lot cheaper, but I do not know if that is so. Maybe if DF could drop some info about how they make thier minis it would be a good comparison.

I am not totally sure about pricing, or overpricing but I doubt it is really a big deal, most medium minis run about 2.50 to 3.00 dollars these days. One difference is Bones molds are brought to the USA after the KS so they can make additional models there.

So not totally srue of the math, but I am definitely sure of the savings. For me, there is little incentive to buy DF in the KS. I do wonder if fewer pieces might allow a better deal during the KS.

Another point I do not know about is how much money DF makes retail as opposed to the KS. If their profit stream is all retail, or mostly so, then what happens KS vs retail changes a lot. I jsut do not know enough about their business model to be sure if having fewer unique pieces in a Ks would help themn out, or make it cheaper for me to get more pieces.

Maybe how they are doing it is the best way for them both artistically and financially, it just seems like having fewer pieces would drive down prices, something I am all for.
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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by kodiakbear » Tue Jan 09, 2018 1:17 am

dice4hire wrote:
Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:02 pm
Compare this with something like Reaper Bones were buying in the KS is a crazy good deal, something like a third the cost of retail on most figures. Sure it is different products, but a lot of DF's lack of KS savings can be tied to too many pieces and the required molds.
Are you sure it is not Reaper charging at a much higher gross margin at retail than DF does because a Bones KS has way more molds, small molds even tiny on some items but way more molds.

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Re: What Can We Improve for KS6?

Post by dice4hire » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:02 pm

I am also on the side of fewer molds and pieces for greater savings. I would like to get more pie3ces for the dollars I spend, not basically fund pieces I will never get, or super niche pieces that basically no one will ever get. A good example being the thrones for KSIV, or some capstone pieces for KSV. Sure they are nice, but will those pieces ever make back their own mold costs? I think not.

KSI was a great deal because the economies of scale were immense. Not much or as much economies of scale since then, which is why DF is not really that great of a KS deal. The main advantage of KS is making sure you get what you want. I figured with KSII I basically would break even with KS ordering or retail and I ended up with a lot of KSIII. Did not do the math for KSIV. Even not counting in shipping, the KS vs retail prices are only about 5% different. Not much.

Compare this with something like Reaper Bones were buying in the KS is a crazy good deal, something like a third the cost of retail on most figures. Sure it is different products, but a lot of DF's lack of KS savings can be tied to too many pieces and the required molds.
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