Burrows

marcoreds
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Re: Burrows

Post by marcoreds » Fri Oct 20, 2017 6:57 am

I did not plan on getting DoD.

I had set up a smaller pledge.

But Burrows, I was really sorry missing, and I saw that if I added them, then for just some more DoD added a ton of stuff to what I was getting, so I went with it.

In my case, had Burrows not been there, I would have spent 1k less.

Please mind, I do understand what some people are saying, if the offer was more limited, many people would have spent about the same amount, for fewer types of pieces.
But please note I said “many”, not “most”, and surely not “all”.

It’s a matter of choice here, imho.

Do we get a KS that reaches a much smaller funding level, but we also cut expenses for molds (so maybe our % profit is even higher), and we release less new things, or do we try and produce how many different things we can, getting the most possible funds (maybe with a smaller % margin)?

I have stated my opinion elsewhere. The addition of a billion new things in no way at all hurts those with a more limited budget, in fact it benefits them with a wider choice. So if it works for DF, I am happy with the variety.

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Re: Burrows

Post by LadySabelle » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:35 am

geekjeff wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:58 am

As for the claim that "offer us fewer pieces and we'll spend more money", that just doesn't ring true. I think most returning customers approach ANY company's Kickstarter with fairly solid budget planned, and you can entice them to go a little bit to medium bit over it with some really exciting extras. But people have a gaming budget, and they will spend it. If there's not enough that tickles their fancy, they'll leave money out or divert it to another project. If there's enough cool stuff, they'll spend what they'd allocated.

There's an inherent tension and contradiction in fanatic desires at play. "Make us X! Make us Y! Z would be SO cool! Whoa wait, this is way too much stuff now!" The DF sculpting crew are fanatics too, and are some darn prolific artists. Believe me, there is MORE stuff you haven't even seen that was pitched or prototyped for all the recent projects. The goal is to get as much of it out into people's hands as is reasonably possible. If I personally can't afford everything on the first go, such is life - I prioritize purchases in other areas of life too.
Very well said, GeekJeff.
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Re: Burrows

Post by Danielg1992 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:18 am

I decided on dungeon of doom and the burrows pieces seem sufficient for a big starter set I may add some elevation later but I decided to get all the dungeon stuff I wanted first and a black and red shrine of sysuul is my next priority. However I really love it I just wanna play with what comes with dod and see what I need it SEEEMS to build a very large encounter though and my table Play area is 5x3 so I don't know how much more is needed of course if I wanted to FILL it with burrows... maybe one day if the next ks doesn't destroy me
I just wanna make the tomb of horrors with dwarvenite

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Re: Burrows

Post by kodiakbear » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:13 am

geekjeff wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:58 am
The goal is to get as much of it out into people's hands as is reasonably possible. If I personally can't afford everything on the first go, such is life -
Very true.

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Re: Burrows

Post by geekjeff » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:58 am

My take: Dwarven Forge's primary goal with a Kickstarter is not solely to min/max backer discounts (although they want to offer a solid deal) or solely to maximize company profitability (although they want to stay solidly in the black on it.) Their goal with a Kickstarter project is to get cool stuff into production.

The "side theme" sets allow cool things which might not be otherwise viable to sink the development cost into, to come to fruition. They absolutely bring in SOME new backers too - there were definitely people who were ho-hum on City Builder until Mega Sewers showed up, there were absolutely people who backed Castles primarily for Mountains. There are definitely a few folks who were ambivalent about Vaulted Dungeons because "I already have 10 sets of KS1" who were drawn in by Burrows and Shrine, because they were something new and completely different.

There are lots of cool-but-niche potential side themes which people fervently request which just aren't viable to produce at a Dwarvenite/Kickstarter ordering scale on their own. Sci-fi. Hellscape. Shipyards. Frontier. (Those are not beans, those are just some things people have repeatedly asked for.) As limited side themes for a larger, popular campaign theme, these become more viable. Some people back for things you weren't excited about, you back for things other people weren't excited about, lots of cool stuff gets made and it's win/win/win. On the whole these have worked out well for DF and Backers, so expect some limited side theme offerings to continue.

As for the claim that "offer us fewer pieces and we'll spend more money", that just doesn't ring true. I think most returning customers approach ANY company's Kickstarter with fairly solid budget planned, and you can entice them to go a little bit to medium bit over it with some really exciting extras. But people have a gaming budget, and they will spend it. If there's not enough that tickles their fancy, they'll leave money out or divert it to another project. If there's enough cool stuff, they'll spend what they'd allocated.

There's an inherent tension and contradiction in fanatic desires at play. "Make us X! Make us Y! Z would be SO cool! Whoa wait, this is way too much stuff now!" The DF sculpting crew are fanatics too, and are some darn prolific artists. Believe me, there is MORE stuff you haven't even seen that was pitched or prototyped for all the recent projects. The goal is to get as much of it out into people's hands as is reasonably possible. If I personally can't afford everything on the first go, such is life - I prioritize purchases in other areas of life too.

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Re: Burrows

Post by kodiakbear » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:51 am

ForestZ wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:49 pm
If Burrows were their own KS I probably would have gotten them.
Since KS5 was advertised as a return to dungeons I presumed before KS5 started that KS6 might be a return to caverns, if it was then a moderate amount of new but traditional cavern type sculpts could really enhance the KS2 caverns and burrows would have been a great addition to that KS, since a caverns only KS could really use a secondary type.

But I get what you are saying too many cool things makes it hard to fit it all in a smaller budget. Even more so since KS5 had so many dungeon items that worked so well together.

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Re: Burrows

Post by zenmaster » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:01 am

ejclason wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:27 pm
Point being decreasing the amount of different items available would not increase the number bought of the remaining items by that much.
I disagree with this greatly. I think kitenerd and dicehire echoed what I find from my own experience. If you don't have a virtually unlimited budget, you will not be getting everything you want. DF does cost itself sales to backers with any kind of budget with these campaigns of enormous scope, that also have unrelated add-ons to the main theme even. I am not complaining, or saying it shouldn't happen this way, but it is true. Kudos to Stefan for following his vision and getting all this stuff out there! Choice is great!! However, the burrows would have been an easy purchase for me if there weren't a dozen other things beckoning more strongly. Same with Streets/Sewers in KS3, and battlements and accessories/decorations in KS4.

I passed on a host of things in KS3, when my budget was smaller, that I would easily have bought at that time. My budget for the last two KSes was relatively large (too much so :P) because I love Castles and missed KS1, but I still had to pass on a lot of battlements, new crenellations, siege accessories, burrows, full jade shrine, and LED pieces that I would have easily bought if there weren't so much other stuff. I am picking up a few of the KS3 pieces I passed on, but lots of the other stuff I will never get because of a) how much I already spent, and b) the new stuff DF will inevitably throw at me in KS 5.5 and KS6.

I guess I am just trying to make DF aware of the fact that they permanently lost sales on burrows, battlements, full Jade shrine, LED stuff, Accessory Megapacks, etc. from me at least that they would have had otherwise. I think kitenerd has made this point as well several times. Talking myself out of getting them also dims the excitement on them, leading to a lesser chance of picking them up in the future (assuming they stay in stock).

Not complaining one bit, and SO glad so much awesome stuff is being made available. But the scope of these things is having some impact on sales. Hopefully, the enormous diversity is enticing new and on-the-fence buyers in some casesand the sales loss from the epic scope is being recouped elsewhere, for DF's sake.
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Re: Burrows

Post by ejclason » Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:36 pm

I suspect that most of the DoD backers got what they wanted. While DoD backers represent less than 15% of the number of backers, they account for over 1/3rd of the pledge total.

Also I suspect that a lot of backers with small budgets already decided to skip Burrows and/or Temple.

Even if you assume that all the money spent on Burrows and Temple would be spent elsewhere, that's only about a 25% increase in volume. If 1/3rd of the cost is molds, that would decrease the costs by about 8%. So an 8% decrease in price is the best case scenario.

I'm willing to pay 8% more for Vaulted stuff if I can get Burrows. Backers who aren't getting Burrows probably feel differently :)

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Re: Burrows

Post by dice4hire » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:38 pm

I do not really agree, I think a lot of people have a budget and go for that, though that is also a WAG, I guess. Sure, having more goodies on the table may push people to go further than they want to, and get one more thing, but I hope there are not people truly spending more than they can afford. So if someone can afford XXXX, then having less stuff to buy may not affect how much they actually spend. The real question is how many people truly got what they wanted AND stayed at/under budget. Those are the ones who would spend less if there were less available.

Personally I set my budget, and after all was said and done ended up a 150 or so over, so having too much available meant I was not getting everything for sure. Just not possible spending under 1k with shipping calculated in. So I went into KSV and in the first minute of looking at the offerings I KNEW I was not going to be able to get everything and choices had to be made. When the cost for even an unpainted DoD is 350% what one intends to spend, you KNOW you are not getting everything.

But I knew I would be spending my budget for what I could afford. I knew I would not be getting half of my budget also in that first minute. What to drop and what to get was the main question. But DF lost no money having a big offering, in fact they probably lsot some profit spending for all those molds. But who knows, really?
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Re: Burrows

Post by ejclason » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:27 pm

I doubt the economies of scale improvement achieved, if Burrows and Temple were not part of KS V, would be very large. Most of the backers at the DoD level would not have spent more on other things, they'd just would have pledged $1000 less. And a lot of the non-DoD backers who got Burrows and/or Temple would also have just spent less money. I did not get the full DoD, but got both Khri Colony + other Burrows and Temple. If they were not available, I would just have spent less. I only need so much Vaulted stuff and Dungeon Level III + a bunch of add ons covered it.

Point being decreasing the amount of different items available would not increase the number bought of the remaining items by that much. My WAG(Wild Ass Guess) is the increase in purchases for Vaulted items would be less than 10%, which if 1/3 of the costs is creating the molds, would decrease the prices for the remaining stuff by less than 4%.

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