Burrows

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Harneloot
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Re: Burrows

Post by Harneloot » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:03 pm

I wonder how much push and pull behind the scenes there is between Stefan's artistic dreams and Jay's economic bottom line? :)

I am just happy Dwarven Forge exists at all - they can keep doing whatever pleases them in my book :D
Last edited by Harneloot on Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dice4hire
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Re: Burrows

Post by dice4hire » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:50 pm

It is a good point about to be or not to be made and I certainly agree with it to an extent. Still I like economies of scale and DF is just not really getting the full effect of it they could be getting. I think Stefan said they spent 800k on molds in a previous kickstarter, so how much will DoD be? A million? Makes the 3+ million mark seem a lot smaller doesn't it?

In the first few KSes I spent about 40% on shipping, and though it is down to about 20% now it is still a lot of product I am not getting compared to an American customer. So I want as many pieces as possible even if there is not quite the variety of pieces that could otherwise be made.

I know it is a bit of a selfish thing to think, but if burrows had not been made, maybe I would have gotten more stretch goals in the sets I did get. But from a monetary perspective I know that is the truth, assuming DF gives maximum value for dollar as I believe they try to do.

This is certainly not attacking burrows, more attacking the kitchen sink approach DF is doing, especially this time with all the capstone pieces and chase pieces scattered around multiple sets in very small numbers. Each one of those pieces is a mold or part of a mold so each piece's startup cost is very high. Seems a shame not to sell a lot of each piece.
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ebrandeis
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Re: Burrows

Post by ebrandeis » Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:59 pm

ForestZ wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:49 pm
ebrandeis wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:11 pm
I wrote a long reply last night, but sadly it was lost.

In short: I love Burrows, they may be my favorite thing about KS5.

Longer: Burrows provide a complete and distinct new environment for adventure, much like Sewers and Mountains form KS3 & KS4. All of those sets stand alone, wouldn't be confused with anything else out there, and also have great compatibility for connecting to other sets. And as others have pointed out, Burrows aren't just ant tunnels - they can be an escape tunnel beneath a prison cell, a food cellar, the inside of a great beast (ok, maybe that's a stretch), or any of other natural underground environments.

Assuming that the theme for KS6 is an enhancement to existing terrain (cities, caverns, whatever), please do consider including another unique environment "mini-set" as was done with Sewers, Mountains, and Burrows.
I think Sewers are the perfect comparison, and unfortunately highlight, again, the problem I have with Burrows. The DF Sewers are gorgeous looking and I would have no problem using them pretty often. Unfortunately, they were introduced in a KS that was also focused on buildings, which were where the value was that KS and what I was interested in. While I'm envious of all the people who save up so they can spend some magnitude >= 1 of the thousands of dollars, my gaming budget doesn't allow that, so Sewers were out, just like Burrows.

If sewers had been their own KS, I would have snatched them up for sure. If Burrows were their own KS I probably would have gotten them. But when each KS has multiple themes that require a large investment to jump into each one, I just can't do it during the KS itself (which, as I mentioned before, creates a growing backlog of pieces I want, which I rarely get to because my gaming budget is usually blown by the *next* KS coming around.)
This is also a good point. I do miss the early (KS1 & KS2) days when a $500 pledge could get a significant amount of the base terrain, plus a bit of all the accessories and special pieces.

But, I'm torn on this point because I mostly would rather that the new stuff get made, even if I can't afford it all. What if, for example, DF only has 5 more years of being in business for some reason. I'd much rather that they make 200 unique pieces each of those years (1000 unique new pieces exist!) than 50 unique pieces (only 250 new pieces). Even if some of them feel unobtainable to me (*ahem* - KS4 thrones...I'm looking at you!), knowing that they're out there and I at least have a shot at picking them up from the DF store or eBay or something in the future is better to me than them never being made in the first place.

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Re: Burrows

Post by ForestZ » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:49 pm

ebrandeis wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:11 pm
I wrote a long reply last night, but sadly it was lost.

In short: I love Burrows, they may be my favorite thing about KS5.

Longer: Burrows provide a complete and distinct new environment for adventure, much like Sewers and Mountains form KS3 & KS4. All of those sets stand alone, wouldn't be confused with anything else out there, and also have great compatibility for connecting to other sets. And as others have pointed out, Burrows aren't just ant tunnels - they can be an escape tunnel beneath a prison cell, a food cellar, the inside of a great beast (ok, maybe that's a stretch), or any of other natural underground environments.

Assuming that the theme for KS6 is an enhancement to existing terrain (cities, caverns, whatever), please do consider including another unique environment "mini-set" as was done with Sewers, Mountains, and Burrows.
I think Sewers are the perfect comparison, and unfortunately highlight, again, the problem I have with Burrows. The DF Sewers are gorgeous looking and I would have no problem using them pretty often. Unfortunately, they were introduced in a KS that was also focused on buildings, which were where the value was that KS and what I was interested in. While I'm envious of all the people who save up so they can spend some magnitude >= 1 of the thousands of dollars, my gaming budget doesn't allow that, so Sewers were out, just like Burrows.

If sewers had been their own KS, I would have snatched them up for sure. If Burrows were their own KS I probably would have gotten them. But when each KS has multiple themes that require a large investment to jump into each one, I just can't do it during the KS itself (which, as I mentioned before, creates a growing backlog of pieces I want, which I rarely get to because my gaming budget is usually blown by the *next* KS coming around.)

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Re: Burrows

Post by Mitch » Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:34 pm

I missed KS1 so instead of KS5 being a return to the dungeon, for me it was enter the dungeon. That meant no budget for Burrows. That coupled with the fact that I have 5 sets of caverns made me think I would get more use of scenarios in caverns than I would in Burrows. They do look nice with the roots adding a subtle grid but the floor cut-outs (for eggs, spikes or blank floor pieces) turned me off them. It looked to much like one of those old wooden kids toys where your put the shape into the corresponding hole. Modularity was great, as was the ability to add elevated sections so you could really could have twisting and turning burrowed-out tunnels.

So limited budget (or rather a budget focused on the core dungeon stuff), limited re-use from the set and minor issue with the way they looked was what stopped me from getting them. That why I preferred the Caverns KS: one theme, simple sets and better prices the more sets you bought.

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ebrandeis
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Re: Burrows

Post by ebrandeis » Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:11 pm

I wrote a long reply last night, but sadly it was lost.

In short: I love Burrows, they may be my favorite thing about KS5.

Longer: Burrows provide a complete and distinct new environment for adventure, much like Sewers and Mountains form KS3 & KS4. All of those sets stand alone, wouldn't be confused with anything else out there, and also have great compatibility for connecting to other sets. And as others have pointed out, Burrows aren't just ant tunnels - they can be an escape tunnel beneath a prison cell, a food cellar, the inside of a great beast (ok, maybe that's a stretch), or any of other natural underground environments.

Assuming that the theme for KS6 is an enhancement to existing terrain (cities, caverns, whatever), please do consider including another unique environment "mini-set" as was done with Sewers, Mountains, and Burrows.

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Re: Burrows

Post by kodiakbear » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:35 am

geekjeff wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:36 am
If you passed on Burrows for budget reasons, they will definitely be stocked in the webstore for you to collect later.
Thank you very much!

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Re: Burrows

Post by kitenerd » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:30 am

Harneloot wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:54 am
I would not be surprised if if we see Underdark Caverns AND Elven Fortress AND Dwarven Halls next KS :shock: :o :!:
And docks, and outdoor terrain, and a caverns expansion, and new water tiles, and thatched roofs and...

I am already surrendering!
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Re: Burrows

Post by Gargs454 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:28 am

dice4hire wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:29 am
kitenerd wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:58 pm

I keep screaming the same message. Give us less, we'll spend the same and you'll make more.
I keep saying that but it seems DF has no intentions of doing it. I really do not think offering more is a surefire way to get more money. I would prefer to see a strong 50 piece KS with great value in packs with much lower mold costs.
A question I have regarding the "smaller KS" is how much is this affected by them having annual Kickstarters? It seems (just as a purely wild guess) that DF does a large percentage of their business through the KS model, which in turn, also makes an annual KS more appealing. If; however, they were to say go every other year with the KS, how much would that open up flexibility for grabbing stock from the store in the interim? I know as a late comer to DF this is a bit of an issue for me. I want to get caverns obviously, but also find the cities and castles to be really cool. The problem for me will be catching up if there's a strong annual offering (which quite frankly, even if the KS is a "small" one, its still likely that the KS money will take up a large portion of my budget for the year anyway). Just as an example, I would have likely spent about the same amount of money if this KS was like KS1 just because I needed those bread and butter and pieces. With a year in between KS's though, I could probably start buying up some of the other systems in between. Of course, it could be a bit of a chicken or the egg thing at this point for DF.

@GeekJeff: Excellent points about the burrows. I do agree that there are a variety of uses for them, just not as many as the regular dungeon stuff. That said, one thing I absolutely loved about the burrows, and which I hope to see with the next set of caverns/underdark (whenever that may happen) is the natural elevations/ramps/tripods/etc. that they had going on. I think this would be absolutely amazing for caverns and is something that a lot of cavern adventures/encounters anticipate, at least in my games. So here's a huge shout out for more of that in the next caverns release. I realize that there are elevation pieces already, but the way the burrows were done made it look so much more natural to me.

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Re: Burrows

Post by Harneloot » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:54 am

dice4hire wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:29 am
kitenerd wrote:
Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:58 pm

I keep screaming the same message. Give us less, we'll spend the same and you'll make more.
I keep saying that but it seems DF has no intentions of doing it. I really do not think offering more is a surefire way to get more money. I would prefer to see a strong 50 piece KS with great value in packs with much lower mold costs.
This might be true, but also remember that this is an expression of Stefan's artistic outpouring and his dream of seeing his homebrew world of Mythras fully realized in 3d terrain. It seems like he has been picking up steam in this regard, not slowing down. :D

I would not be surprised if if we see Underdark Caverns AND Elven Fortress AND Dwarven Halls next KS :shock: :o :!:

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