The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

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Spiropolous the Minotaur
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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Spiropolous the Minotaur » Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:32 pm

Thank you Johnathan for a wonderful analysis.
I have only just seen/read this now. I have been neglecting the forums lately due to all the flying and kickstarter work, etc...I don't know If i could have done a better analysis myself as I am terrible with numbers.
let me try to address some of your points: Yes, my goal has always been to make 2" x2" tiles or 4" x4" tiles or whatever size, to be within the inch scale. At the very beginning in 1996 I was a newbie and didn't realize the resin pieces were shrinking so much. In hindsight, I might have tried to sculpt them a little bigger so they could maybe shrink down...but how much bigger? I had no idea either. At the time I didn't know people would be buying thousands of dollars in my humble little project of hand painted modular pieces. I also didn;t realise that the pieces were heavy enough that they would not need bow tie connectors...I also did not realise that they should be cast in grey. (the original batch was cast in white) I didn't know a lot of things....oh for a time machine...

anyway, I always try to improve if i can and if it is reasonable.

You are correct that no intentional size change was made. I think that the process just got better (still not perfect) now that we use steel molds for dwarvenite.

So, at this point, we have what we have. And really, what we have always had. Some slight variations in scales. I can't turn back the clock. let's move forward. As some have said, it's best to use City builder pieces to build cities and if you want to use some dungeon tiles or medieval building resin tiles with them, you should know that there is a slight size difference, be aware, and use them appropriately. What I mean by that is, maybe use them for their own section of your building? I have been successful in stacking some levels in big builds, but not very high. With City builder sets alone, they can stack very high as I saw in some pictures and in my own use. castles will be made to match City builder pieces because they are the most likely "companions" mixing tudor or stone houses with your castle will be very likely and should be tried wholeheartedly.
One thing to think about. using your dungeon pieces INSIDE the castles to form rooms works out well because of the slightly smaller scale. This was something i was very concerned about If i remember correctly in my original castle design which was then changed, but i think it is still a good thing.

Now to something very important. We continue to want to make Resin Sets. Both restock and new designs. So i think it should be known that when we do, we will be trying to match the older resin sets in scale. So we will be sculpting them as we always have done in 1" scale with a slight shrinkage so they can try to match the other sets everyone has collected over the years. I think that anything we make that is "dungeon" should try to match that scale. Going forth, anything that is City builder or Castle builder should try to match that "less shrinkage" scale.

Can we agree that this is the right way to go?

My apologies that perfection in these shrinkage issues has never been perfect. I still believe that our products are wonderful. I still think one is able to mix and match them albeit with some size issues here and there to contend with. But i should point out that Nate and I have built some pretty massive setups mixing sets together both resin and steel mold made stuff and it worked pretty great. The castle stuff we built and you see has a lot of scale issues from piece to piece because we casted them in resin in our office and hand sanded the bottoms. the biggest issue we had is shrinkage of the round pieces...so they don't connect the circles. This will not be an issue when they are made in the steel molds. we are even using 3-D printing technology to make sure the curves are perfect circles. (We are not totally old school after all)

Anyway, thank you for all the efforts on analysis, it is helpful to us too!

I hope everyone can find this analysis useful as well. Let's please enjoy what we have realising that maybe it's not as perfect as we wanted, but that it is still the best there is in my opinion at least.

Thank you.

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by jasdotcom » Tue Mar 22, 2016 1:27 pm

Thank you for your work putting this post together!!

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by jchunick » Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:26 am

LastFighter wrote:Thanks Josh ! I will say I am happy with the pictures that people showed for compatibility.

Its more a general question for Stefan and possibly Jay to answer regarding the production process for new molds.

I am assuming the shrinkage was avoided due to CAD models of the pieces in the last KS. So will DF use the same process going forward on new ones.

I am agnostic on it, but at the same time I want to know ;)
In programming we say 'Garbage In, Garbage Out', and that applies here insofar as if your original piece is not scaled properly from the start then it's just going to get worse throughout the process. A lot of the issues can be alleviated by making the model perfectly accurate in the computer. The other large factor was the manufacturing process was improved over the Kickstarters. What the factory knew going into KS3 was far more than what they knew going into KS1.

I don't honestly know what techniques will be employed in future Kickstarters. Building simple stone textured shapes makes it much easier to get that into a 3D shape on the computer... if it's more organic then I suspect that the process that's currently being used won't work - 3D scanning tools will probably be needed. I do have some experience working in 3D software, but not in getting physical shapes scanned into 3D programs other than what I've seen on TV and in "behind the scenes" stuff on DVDs and online.
Unless otherwise noted, my views and opinions on this forum are my own and do not, in any way, reflect the views and opinions of Dwarven Forge.

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by LastFighter » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:29 pm

Thanks Josh ! I will say I am happy with the pictures that people showed for compatibility.

Its more a general question for Stefan and possibly Jay to answer regarding the production process for new molds.

I am assuming the shrinkage was avoided due to CAD models of the pieces in the last KS. So will DF use the same process going forward on new ones.

I am agnostic on it, but at the same time I want to know ;)

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by jchunick » Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:13 pm

LastFighter wrote:It would KS1/2 would have different results using the same molds with a new production run ? I would guess not but it would be good to understand

Also as its been stated before, will new molds be 'true' 2" for new items for KS1/2 ?

There is a big market I think for add-ons to the first two sets that is still untapped.

My personal view on the scale is a shrug but I would like to understand how future molds for KS1/2 will be produced.
Stefan or Nate can tackle future pieces that haven't been built yet, but I can't so I won't.

I will say that mountains plays nice with caverns as Elye has confirmed already. He hasn't posted too much on the KS4 comments so when I get back from walking the dog to jump on my computer I'll be able to look for his exact comment and post it here.
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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by LastFighter » Tue Mar 15, 2016 5:58 pm

It would KS1/2 would have different results using the same molds with a new production run ? I would guess not but it would be good to understand

Also as its been stated before, will new molds be 'true' 2" for new items for KS1/2 ?

There is a big market I think for add-ons to the first two sets that is still untapped.

My personal view on the scale is a shrug but I would like to understand how future molds for KS1/2 will be produced.

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Audles » Tue Mar 15, 2016 12:38 pm

Thank you Jonathan for taking the time to do this. I appreciate data and numbers.

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Rabbit Burner » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:21 am

Great post and hopefully will put this issue to bed :)
Unless you do KS1 and 2 add-ons ............
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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by jchunick » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:23 pm

Blue Prophet wrote:
jchunick wrote: A point to consider,
Jonathan very specifically said that he confirmed what we had been saying from DF, especially Elye, who had put it quite succinctly. By the time this beast of an issue was recognized as a Hydra everyone at DF was heading to SXSW and at that point everyone was looking to Stefan and Nate for confirmation of an answer, and a fuller one that only they could provide because the one we had wasn't acceptable for all sorts of reasons, I guess.
This problem did not need a succinct answer, which therefore was lacking in details. Jonathan provided detailed facts that made the issue clearer. Besides, I brought this up over a month ago.

AND I'm still waiting for possible solutions to the problem.

AND this does not help address this issue to potential new DF customer that buy these things for the first time and are surprised when they intermix them at home. This information should be located in an easy to find place, not buried in a forum.
Thanks for the input.
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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Blue Prophet » Mon Mar 14, 2016 3:09 pm

jchunick wrote: A point to consider,
Jonathan very specifically said that he confirmed what we had been saying from DF, especially Elye, who had put it quite succinctly. By the time this beast of an issue was recognized as a Hydra everyone at DF was heading to SXSW and at that point everyone was looking to Stefan and Nate for confirmation of an answer, and a fuller one that only they could provide because the one we had wasn't acceptable for all sorts of reasons, I guess.
This problem did not need a succinct answer, which therefore was lacking in details. Jonathan provided detailed facts that made the issue clearer. Besides, I brought this up over a month ago.

AND I'm still waiting for possible solutions to the problem.

AND this does not help address this issue to potential new DF customer that buy these things for the first time and are surprised when they intermix them at home. This information should be located in an easy to find place, not buried in a forum.

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