The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by GODofwar » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:40 pm

Audles wrote:This certainly did a lot to scale back my concerns.

must....restrain....urge to reach through Forum....and strangle Audles....ahhhhhhh....
[CHOKING SOUNDS]

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by LastFighter » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:33 pm

Audles wrote:This certainly did a lot to scale back my concerns.
I see what you did there :)

Thanks for the update Stefan, I hope to see more resin lines in the future even if it's releasing old sets.

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Audles » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:12 pm

This certainly did a lot to scale back my concerns.

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by GODofwar » Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:05 pm

Spiropolous the Minotaur wrote:let me try to address some of your points: Yes, my goal has always been to make 2" x2" tiles or 4" x4" tiles or whatever size, to be within the inch scale. At the very beginning in 1996 I was a newbie and didn't realize the resin pieces were shrinking so much. In hindsight, I might have tried to sculpt them a little bigger so they could maybe shrink down...but how much bigger? I had no idea either.anyway, I always try to improve if i can and if it is reasonable.
TLW- Stefan,thanks for the straight word. This is completely understandable now that you (officially, from On High) explain it.

You are correct that no intentional size change was made. I think that the process just got better (still not perfect) now that we use steel molds for dwarvenite.

So, at this point, we have what we have. .... I can't turn back the clock. ...

As some have said, it's best to use City builder pieces to build cities and if you want to use some dungeon tiles or medieval building resin tiles with them, you should know that there is a slight size difference, be aware, and use them appropriately.
TLW-And the truth is that in horizontal use I have yet to have a player notice. So I don'tcare any more about the horizontal error. Your players may vary.


11 I have been successful in stacking some levels in big builds, but not very high.
TLW-SO this really is the only functional problem. Stefan, have you figured out if say one cardboard sheet from a paper tablet every X levels can fix the problem? I think this is likely the answer...and a cheap one...

With City builder sets alone, they can stack very high .... castles will be made to match City builder pieces because they are the most likely "companions" mixing tudor or stone houses with your castle will be very likely and should be tried wholeheartedly.
One thing to think about. using your dungeon pieces INSIDE the castles to form rooms works out well because of the slightly smaller scale. This was something i was very concerned about If i remember correctly in my original castle design which was then changed, but i think it is still a good thing.

Now to something very important. We continue to want to make Resin Sets. Both restock and new designs. So i think it should be known that when we do, we will be trying to match the older resin sets in scale. So we will be sculpting them as we always have done in 1" scale with a slight shrinkage so they can try to match the other sets everyone has collected over the years. I think that anything we make that is "dungeon" should try to match that scale.
TLW- YAY! More resin, and resin/resin compatibility. Heartily approve.

Going forth, anything that is City builder or Castle builder should try to match that "less shrinkage" scale.
TLW-Same!

Can we agree that this is the right way to go
TLW-Yes. And based on this, I'm definitely going for minimum $1k in KS4.

My apologies that perfection in these shrinkage issues has never been perfect. I still believe that our products are wonderful. I still think one is able to mix and match them albeit with some size issues here and there to contend with. But i should point out that Nate and I have built some pretty massive setups mixing sets together both resin and steel mold made stuff and it worked pretty great. The castle stuff we built and you see has a lot of scale issues from piece to piece because we casted them in resin in our office and hand sanded the bottoms. the biggest issue we had is shrinkage of the round pieces...so they don't connect the circles. This will not be an issue when they are made in the steel molds. we are even using 3-D printing technology to make sure the curves are perfect circles. (We are not totally old school after all)

Anyway, thank you for all the efforts on analysis, it is helpful to us too!

I hope everyone can find this analysis useful as well. Let's please enjoy what we have realising that maybe it's not as perfect as we wanted, but that it is still the best there is in my opinion at least.

Thank you.
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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Blue Prophet » Wed Mar 23, 2016 3:02 am

Thank you Stephan for the clearer explanation. Overall it is a good thing that you and the factory are figuring out ways to be more consistent in sizing.

Please consider resculpting or somehow resizing and remolding the worst offenders of the scale problem in dwarvenite. Since it appears to be only a few pieces, especially from KS1 since they are most likely to be mixed with CBS stuff, I think it might make sense to make new molds for future runs of KS1 tiles. I bet if you ran a tiny Kickstarter just to do that, with like a $20-40K goal, you would raise enough to justify creating those molds. Not every Kickstarter has to be a big monstrous effort.

The first and only resin I have so far is catacombs, but at the top of my list of wants in resin are the caverns and lakes (and rivers). Maybe those kinds of larger forms will be doable in dwarvenite-g at some point, but those look so cool to me, maybe for other sections of a cavern system mixed with KS2. There is no way I can afford the crazy Ebay prices for these things, so it is really too bad that they won't be reproduced.

Realm of the Ancients is very cool too, but less versatile and lower on my want list.

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by AnimeSensei » Tue Mar 22, 2016 11:48 pm

Spiropolous the Minotaur wrote:Thank you Johnathan for a wonderful analysis.
I have only just seen/read this now. I have been neglecting the forums lately due to all the flying and kickstarter work, etc...I don't know If i could have done a better analysis myself as I am terrible with numbers.
let me try to address some of your points: Yes, my goal has always been to make 2" x2" tiles or 4" x4" tiles or whatever size, to be within the inch scale. At the very beginning in 1996 I was a newbie and didn't realize the resin pieces were shrinking so much. In hindsight, I might have tried to sculpt them a little bigger so they could maybe shrink down...but how much bigger? I had no idea either. At the time I didn't know people would be buying thousands of dollars in my humble little project of hand painted modular pieces. I also didn;t realise that the pieces were heavy enough that they would not need bow tie connectors...I also did not realise that they should be cast in grey. (the original batch was cast in white) I didn't know a lot of things....oh for a time machine...

anyway, I always try to improve if i can and if it is reasonable.

You are correct that no intentional size change was made. I think that the process just got better (still not perfect) now that we use steel molds for dwarvenite.

So, at this point, we have what we have. And really, what we have always had. Some slight variations in scales. I can't turn back the clock. let's move forward. As some have said, it's best to use City builder pieces to build cities and if you want to use some dungeon tiles or medieval building resin tiles with them, you should know that there is a slight size difference, be aware, and use them appropriately. What I mean by that is, maybe use them for their own section of your building? I have been successful in stacking some levels in big builds, but not very high. With City builder sets alone, they can stack very high as I saw in some pictures and in my own use. castles will be made to match City builder pieces because they are the most likely "companions" mixing tudor or stone houses with your castle will be very likely and should be tried wholeheartedly.
One thing to think about. using your dungeon pieces INSIDE the castles to form rooms works out well because of the slightly smaller scale. This was something i was very concerned about If i remember correctly in my original castle design which was then changed, but i think it is still a good thing.

Now to something very important. We continue to want to make Resin Sets. Both restock and new designs. So i think it should be known that when we do, we will be trying to match the older resin sets in scale. So we will be sculpting them as we always have done in 1" scale with a slight shrinkage so they can try to match the other sets everyone has collected over the years. I think that anything we make that is "dungeon" should try to match that scale. Going forth, anything that is City builder or Castle builder should try to match that "less shrinkage" scale.

Can we agree that this is the right way to go?

My apologies that perfection in these shrinkage issues has never been perfect. I still believe that our products are wonderful. I still think one is able to mix and match them albeit with some size issues here and there to contend with. But i should point out that Nate and I have built some pretty massive setups mixing sets together both resin and steel mold made stuff and it worked pretty great. The castle stuff we built and you see has a lot of scale issues from piece to piece because we casted them in resin in our office and hand sanded the bottoms. the biggest issue we had is shrinkage of the round pieces...so they don't connect the circles. This will not be an issue when they are made in the steel molds. we are even using 3-D printing technology to make sure the curves are perfect circles. (We are not totally old school after all)

Anyway, thank you for all the efforts on analysis, it is helpful to us too!

I hope everyone can find this analysis useful as well. Let's please enjoy what we have realising that maybe it's not as perfect as we wanted, but that it is still the best there is in my opinion at least.

Thank you.
Thank you, Stefan. Awesome post.

Also, I've only ever had one resin piece break. It was a straight long Sci Fi Beta wall. (It would HAVE to be the Beta set...) It broke in transit as I was moving it. Superglue does miracles and you can barely tell it was ever broken because the resin is dark (thanks for not continuing to use white, Stefan!).

But most importantly...

If possible, I think an awesome answer for sewers is if you can ever do resin water effects again, re-release the sewers set in resin with resin water like you did in the caverns like/river sets. It would still get the shrinkage, fit with the resin size, and also fit within the resin line in an aesthetic sense. I'd re-buy it.
106 Resin and 145 Dwarvenite Sets/Packs Owned

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Law » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:14 pm

Yes, I should add that the reason my collection had been stored in bins in the first place was because after about a decade of owning it, I'd NEVER had a piece chip or damage, and that included pieces I'd accidentally dropped. It held up beautifully. I threw out the boxes because so much of what I had was on display, and I was just storing boxes, but some of it was in bins, and I had no issues. In fact, I also used to have Hirst Arts structures I'd built out of hydrocal, and that stuff shattered super easily (much to my frustration!). I tossed all my HA buildings over time, because they were just too annoying to store. They weren't sturdy enough.

The breakage I DID suffer for DF involved the pieces I sent in bins in trucks all the way across the country, and that's quite a lot of wear and tear to put them through.

That said, it's obviously still SOMEWHAT fragile. I still regret tossing the boxes to keep them safe under any conditions, including another move, and to help keep them organized. After a decade of no troubles, I took their sturdiness for granted, and that proved a costly and depressing mistake. Hence my new-found call for caution with them. ;)

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Harneloot » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:00 pm

Law wrote: It seems like resin caverns are things of the past, which is a shame
How true this is. I pretty much have all the resin sets I will ever need, but if was ever going to buy another it would be in the cavern line. There just really isn't any comparison of the Dwarvenite caverns to the resin ones.

I'd also like to disagree with you Law in the fragility issue of the resin sets. I know you had a taumatic experience when you moved and many of your pieces broke, but I have had a different experience.

When they switched the resin sets to *no bow ties* I sold my collection and re-bought everything sans bow ties. However, this left me with a large number of single bow-tie pieces that I did not bother to try and sell. I just threw them all in a large storage tub and gave them to my three year old son to play with. He played with them for two years until Dwarventie came out (and still incorporates them into his Dwarventie builds) and treated them the same way he did his wood building blocks - chucked into a large strorage container all jumbled together without being careful and not a single piece has ever chipped or broken.

Yes, Dwarvenite is nearly indestructible and resin WILL break if dropped from table height onto a stone/tile/concrete floor. However, IMHO it is also not nearly as fragile as people seem to make it out to be.

Just my 2cp.

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Arcarius2001 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 7:20 pm

Law wrote:
Having said all that, I AGREE, AGREE, AGREE, AGREE that it makes sense to keep resin consistent with resin, and Dwarvenite consistent with Dwarvenite.

Now, having said all that -- CAN YOU PLEASE RESTOCK RESIN ROOM SETS IN THE ONLINE STORE? You've got Wicked Addition sets and ABS sets that are hanging around, and you know those won't sell as well without the basic set they're designed to go with!
I couldn't agree more with these two statements. Personally, I am not that annoyed by the scale "problem". That I even have this stuff on my table at all never ceases to amaze me. So much better than the graph paper we used to use back in the day. But I would love to see a restock on the resin sets.

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Re: The Big Post on Scale Compatibility

Post by Law » Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:57 pm

I'll add my two cents.

I am not bothered immensely by the scale issues most of the time. I agree, this stuff is truly spectacular, and I won't waste too much time on that point, I think my love for the product is clear by this point.

But, yeah, for some issues, it can get in the way. I don't tend to use the long resin walls from Wicked Additions because they definitely throw things off. I also tend to build smaller dungeons so it's easy to replace a long wall with three regular walls and not have any problems. And I don't use the Woodland Set as much as I might, because it simply doesn't fit as well as the other sets. Otherwise, I'd probably use it a LOT more. It's stunning.

Having said all that, I AGREE, AGREE, AGREE, AGREE that it makes sense to keep resin consistent with resin, and Dwarvenite consistent with Dwarvenite. Here's why:

1) The products are designed for different purposes. The resin stuff is more fragile and more expensive. It's not casual gaming stuff, and it's not designed to travel. (The boxes that keep it safe also make it take up a lot of room) So for people who want gaming tools to travel around with, Dwarvenite all the way. For people who want something on a shelf for display - resin.

Because the products satisfy different needs, why mix them? Sure, you CAN. But why WOULD you? What is the point of "durable, nearly indestructible Dwarvenite" if you're using it with "fragile, don't drop it, don't let it chip!" resin? You're depriving yourself of the benefit!

Plus, IMO, the sculpts are just too different to blend. Even the floors, let alone the walls -- it just stands out. I don't want to use Dwarvenite floors in my resin dungeons if I can help it -- it clearly doesn't fit, it clearly wasn't designed to go there, it stands out.

2) Many people I've spoken with collect mostly one or the other. There is no need to mess with the "scale" of anything, i.e. change how resin is handled or how Dwarvenite is, based on this interaction between the sets because the vast majority of fans seem to collect only one type. As a result, you'd be messing with the consistency of all-resin or all-Dwarvenite collections for the sake of a consistency between brands that's satisfying only a small portion of customers.

3) Most importantly -- at least as far as CBS goes, IMO, it's a pretty darn independent set. Sure, you can make buildings out of anything. You can stack KS1, you can stack resin dungeons and MBS. But, really, CBS is a whole new system. With the 4x4 footprint, the posts, the streets, it all fits together. And I find that it fits together so well, it really should stay its own thing. I agree - if you want a building made of resin flagstone and MBS, you can make that its own building. But it wouldn't work right to mix it with CBS. The style is totally different, the paint is totally different - it just -- it's just clearly not meant to go together.

It IS a shame that the sewers, which make SUCH a great companion to the resin dungeons, don't match well enough to create a vast table layout. But as many pics have shown, mine and others, they certainly match well enough for smaller encounters. It's not really all that noticeable -- like Stefan says, hopefully people can still appreciate how cool it is and not have a net disappointment over a few small gaps. It still really looks great overall.

Now, having said all that -- CAN YOU PLEASE RESTOCK RESIN ROOM SETS IN THE ONLINE STORE? You've got Wicked Addition sets and ABS sets that are hanging around, and you know those won't sell as well without the basic set they're designed to go with!

It seems like resin caverns are things of the past, which is a shame, but if you're going to do resin going forward, please make resin dungeons still available! They're a classic, they started it all, and they deserve to stick around. ;)

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