City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

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AnimeSensei
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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by AnimeSensei » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:52 am

I really don't know what to think. It's supposed to be the "gold standard" in gaming, right?

I don't know the inner workings of things at DF, but it does seem the new team (post-Jeff Martin) is more geared towards the flash and excitement than the nitty gritty details, but again I don't see anything from my vantage point really. But it's the small things that matter and make a quality product!

On a positive note, I am glad they are delivering on time and I do like the visuals of the CBS system.
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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by Kryzsko » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:26 am

This is very unfortunate. The biggest problem is the sewers. I was planning to mix these with my dungeon tiles, and now it will be awkward. The other big problem will be the castle set as it needs to work with the basic dungeon tiles, but then it will not line up with the city tiles. The city and sewer tiles looks so nice it is sad that somehow the size ended up off.

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by mazesmonsters » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:06 am

Echoing the sentiment that I wouldn't mind a longer wait before the next KS. If they can push Star Wars back... take a little longer with Dwarven Forge too, so nothing is underbaked!

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by William » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:08 pm

I hate to say it (even though they are always on-time at shipping time), but I feel like the last two KS seemed rushed while happening and then the turn around time left no time for test play :ugeek: . I would rather wait a year for the next KS than have things not fit well. I think the time table of the KS's are a bit rushed, at least for me.
After the KS is done they have so many things to do that I don't even know about, but we do know they have to finish many sculpts, mold, cast, then make sure they have [approved] painted versions to send off to China for all the steps the pieces go through there. I would hope they could spend a month or two to test (play with, the only way), measure, fix and re-run the needed pieces through the proccess after that. Then run the Steel Moulds and so on...
I don't want to sound negative, since I don't even have the new KSIII pieces in hand to check out and I have never been disappointed with any part of Dwarven Forke as a company. I know they are now used to doing it yearly and I think that has been Epic, but my savings account has also taken an fairly epic hit too (This stuff is too cool, I can't stop myself). If we waited for 6 months until the next Kickstarter, it would be more than fine with me. So how about a year and a half turn around? My wife/wallet would REALLY like the longer break. ;)

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by AnimeSensei » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:37 pm

As someone who owns many resin and KS1 and KS2 sets, this is very disappointing to me. :(

Overall, I'm sadly getting less and less enthused about KS3 and even KS4. Will KS4 integrate with the old sets in regards to size or the new KS3 proportions? We'll need to know.

There really seems to have been quality control issues with this last kickstarter, the more we see the more there are issues. :( Many small, but still there are many. :(
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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by Law » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:36 pm

I'm torn on this issue. On the one hand, I have previously really loved mixing up various DF elements. Before we had CBS, I used to put the MBS and dungeon pieces together routinely. And I liked mixing up catacombs pieces with regular dungeons, and placing river pieces in dungeons, and adding ROTA floors to dungeons... all very fun. And I can definitely think of cool ways to mix things up with CPS - a sewer opens up into catacombs, or a ROTA temple is in the middle of a town square, or dungeon pieces can be used to create a different kind of stone house.


So, yeah, hearing that it's probably not gonna work. ouch.

BUT -- here's why it doesn't REALLY bug me.

1) The CBS stuff is SO DIFFERENT in the way it works, the basic template of it, with the slotted in walls and holes in the floors -- it ALREADY doesn't really work with the older stuff anyway. It just looks different, it feels different, it's a completely different approach. For interiors, I admit, I much prefer the old approach. I love the way DF works, with adding floors and walls together to create a room, and assembling a bunch of pegs and then slotting walls in.. .it just isn't as elegant. And the larger footprint greatly reduces flexibility. So - frankly, if I'm gonna use my old sets, I'm not going to want to use the CBS stuff with them anyway. And if I'm making a city, I have no use for the old sets.

2) Building a city requires SO MANY different little pieces that must be assembled. I take out my box of streets and lay those down. I take out my box of floors, and even if I've already inserted the pegs, I still have to lay them all down. I take out my box of walls and figure out where doors go, where windows go, and so on. I take out special walls like magnet walls and light up walls and balconies and figure out where they should go. I decide if I'm going to use the bridge. I place roofs down. I add magnet pieces like the signs, the chimneys, the perches, the tapestries.

That is all a LOT of work and it takes a ton of time and requires me to lug out a bunch of boxes -- and when I'm done, put it all back.

So -- how interested am I, REALLY, how often am I actually going to take out EVEN MORE stuff and mix it all up, only to have to separate it all out and put it away again at the end? It just feels like something I'd be doing SO RARELY, just more work and more stuff to keep track of.

Obviously, YMMV, and I feel bad for people who were excited about layouts that were going to mix things together. But for me, luckily, this has almost no impact on my expected use for the set.

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by Audles » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:37 pm

CBS does seem all over the map in a few areas, such as varying sizes on the Tudor walls. I don't think building vertically with the DF1 and DF2 will necessarily be an issue since that size variance is true to life. However, I didn't expect such a stark difference on the table. That's a big gap. Are the streets a perfect 4x4? Or is it the old tiles that aren't exactly measuring up to 4x4?

I wonder how many tiles have to be built in before you can slide a Sewer 2x1 to true the old tiles back up. That might at least be a short term fix. But yeah, I can totally see your disappointment. I'm still planning on using old tiles as a base to integrate TableTop World and MBA buildings into the mix.

All told I think I'm having a pretty measured response to the sets. They aren't as versatile as expected for a lot of reasons. Much of which is, and this was rightly a pretty big critique during the campaign, that the up front cost to make something worthwhile was several factors over KS1 and KS2. I tripled my budget on this one - and still feel a little short to actually wow my players. Partly because I was too overwhelmed to figure out exactly which add-on packs I'd need to make functional buildings. I didm't get many of the building packs because I couldn't see what would be waste and what wouldn't. Something i'll be addressing now that I have these in hand and can actually see what I need. Also hoping DF does the "BY THE POUND" promo at GenCon this year. That'll be a nice way to get more of what you actually need without getting more window walls. Anyway, t'll be curious to see how that plays out on DF4.

As far as minis, the Ratmen are nice but I got one of the poorly painted Guard packs. Looking at it next to the Lizardmen is a bit rough. It's a pretty big downswing in quality. Though I can imagine the Guard being a bit more complicated to pull off from non-pro painters.

And just because I do still think these are pretty awesome, here are the things that are still exciting me: SEWERS (bummer that these might be off 2x2, I'll need to check when I get home), STREETS, and BRIDGE OF VALOR buildings. There's a ton of fiddly bits that are fun - and the magnetics (despite from being marginally dangerous) are a fun way to mix things up.

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by Blue Prophet » Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:03 pm

It is all the new tiles. The sewer walls are like 1mm taller than the narrow passage pieces.

The CBS floor tiles and streets all seem to be the same size. The pads could be part of the height issue, but not the only factor.

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by ForestZ » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:39 pm

I think part of the issue with height is the rubber pads on the bottoms (I don't have mine yet but have heard about them). I'm guessing those were an afterthought for stability which throws the scale off a bit. It honestly may be a blessing though, because regular tiles may need a supporting pieces underneath them for larger builds, so a thin sheet between floors may a) increase stability and b) bring each floor closer in height to the CBS buildings.

The second issue is a bit more interesting. Have you compared them to the building floors to see if they have the same scaling issues? Maybe it's something limited to the streets?

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City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by Blue Prophet » Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:29 pm

Yesterday I very excitedly set up my unpainted Village and Imperial streets. It is very impressive, and I like the new stuff a lot.

However, I then started building a little 4x4 square structure with Dungeon Tiles right next to a CBS house, and I noticed the heights didn't match. That was when my heart actually sunk a bit. I checked the widths too, and sure enough the new CBS tiles (and sewer tiles) are about 1 or 2 mm larger in length and height than existing products. This basically precludes many ideas that intermix old tiles with the new system. A couple of 4x4 structures from old tiles mixed in is not a problem, but once you start building something large with old tiles - the difference in scale adds up.

Here is an example of the height difference at three levels (which may be a less common use of older Dungeon Tiles):
CBSheight.jpg
CBSheight.jpg (360.09 KiB) Viewed 2617 times
The height difference is less of an issue since at one level it isn't too bad, and it is unlikely I would be stacking a ton of Dungeon Tiles next to CBS ones and needing a shared roof. They can be independent buildings of slightly different height - fine.

But it is the width that concerns me more, here are six Dungeon Tiles lined up next to three Street Tiles (and a closeup):
CBS-dungeon-tile.jpg
CBS-dungeon-tile.jpg (362.77 KiB) Viewed 2617 times
CBS-dungeon-tile-close.jpg
CBS-dungeon-tile-close.jpg (382.94 KiB) Viewed 2617 times
And I checked with the only resin set I have of Catacombs, the same issue:
CBS-catacombs.jpg
CBS-catacombs.jpg (315.77 KiB) Viewed 2617 times
So basically some of those cool layouts we saw in the Kickstarter, like the water tiles running through an elevated city or sewer tiles placed along the outside of a wall, are not going to look very good or maybe not even be possible. I was looking forward to mixing ruins items with existing tiles, which will work for small 4x4 CBS ruins buildings, but there will be limits to the types of layouts that work.

Much of the flexibility is lost because of this slight scale difference. It truly is a new "system" that requires extra careful planning in order to be mixed with the older stuff without looking weird. I am actually rethinking how much I want to invest in this system versus the older tiles and resin. This is a big disappointment to me, I think allowing the most creativity with intermixing old and new items is a huge selling point. This scale difference makes them less compatible than if they matched. I'm guessing we lose about 20% of building utility because of this, which is more of a letdown than a disaster. It is a little concerning to me whether this was an oversight, manufacturer problem, or determined irrelevant.

Suffice to say, this discovery took the edge off my excitement. The new stuff is still very cool, just not as cool as it should be.

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