City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

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GODofwar
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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by GODofwar » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:11 pm

AnimeSensei wrote: My biggest issue, Stefan, (besides we consumers finding out about the new size upon delivery) is that the new CBS system is restrictive in regards to a 4x4 footprint instead of a 2x2 and so I -need- to use my old pieces with them. So if I want to use my existing KS1 or resin pieces to intermingle to make what I need, I get topsy-turvy terrain that could fall over more easily. The footprint I could handle, but the height difference is what I have been sadly frustrated about.
TLW-Stefan, this really matters. CBS is intended to stack. Noncompatibility horizontally may be less important but vertical incompatibility = instability. CBSis intended to go UP - maybe way up. This matters A LOT.

Same goes for sewers. I bought the sewers to augment my dungeon tiles and resin pieces, and now if I have a multi-level sewer/dungeon layout, I have issues.
TLW-Now, I've got a solution, but it ignores the purpose of CBS. Don't stack CBS with dungeons, sewers etc. Put plywood plates between layers.
This eliminates all problems with leveling. It does require that multi-level underground builds have higher stories laid to one side, but sewer and dungeon and cavern levels usually have empty space, at least in my builds. This has the added advantage of ameliorating some of he vertical issues for below-ground builds, but no solving them.


For example, in the D&D module the Hoard of the Dragon Queen there is a 2-story lodge; to do it accurately to the module I need a mix of CBS and older 2x2 tiles. Because it's a multi-level building, and I like to have the levels stacked on each other for the "ooh and aaah" reveal to my players, it has some wobblyness in certain areas due to the height inconsistencies. When I'm placing terrain or my players move their pieces it can cause issues with things falling over.
TLW-And this is serious. Read Stefan's piece again and the Artist and Gamer are way ahead of the Engineer!

I think a good idea may be if you do future releases that are not in the new CBS scale, to specify it as such. (For example if you do expansions to the existing KS1 Game Tiles or KS2 Caverns Tiles) Unless you just stick with the new scale all around, but I think that may cause some issues.
TLW-Heartily concur.
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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by Oldent » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:06 pm

Spiropolous the Minotaur wrote:Well, I think it would make sense if any new Resin products like the catacombs set should be in the same scale as all the other Resin products, and any new Dwarvenite pieces meant to be used for City builder or castle should be in that scale, more true to exact 2" or 4" Does that make sense?
:o :? :x Dwarven Forge products are scaled for 25mm,28mm, 32mm or even 1/48 using the word" scale" as if it had the same meaning as different tolerances causes confusion and is profoundly self destructive. NO it is a terrible idea. This will only compound and prolong a needless controversy.
I have the resin sets it would be better to use the same measurements for planned expansions of current sets but only current sets. All of the old resin sets should be eventually be retired and the new stand measurements used for everything new.

I don't like math. I hate making metric conversions. What ever standard you use it must be the same one. I love your stuff but careless use of terms only adds fuel to fire a needless controversy :!: :!: :!:
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AnimeSensei
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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by AnimeSensei » Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:24 am

Spiropolous the Minotaur wrote:Well, I think it would make sense if any new Resin products like the catacombs set should be in the same scale as all the other Resin products, and any new Dwarvenite pieces meant to be used for City builder or castle should be in that scale, more true to exact 2" or 4" Does that make sense?
Perfect. And I agree.

And again, I mean no mean-spiritedness with my critique. I mean it to be constructive criticism with reasons for my concerns. Please don't think I'm trolling or just complaining. :)

Also, this may have been answered, but the forum is so crazy... In this exact vein of thought, I see in the tower video Nate used the new Mountain Cliff pieces with the KS2 Elevation pieces. Does this mean the Mountain Cliff pieces are in KS2 scale?
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Spiropolous the Minotaur
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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by Spiropolous the Minotaur » Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:14 am

Well, I think it would make sense if any new Resin products like the catacombs set should be in the same scale as all the other Resin products, and any new Dwarvenite pieces meant to be used for City builder or castle should be in that scale, more true to exact 2" or 4" Does that make sense?

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by AnimeSensei » Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:07 am

First off, I'm only critical because I love this stuff. If I didn't, and I had issues, I would move on to another company and wouldn't be pledging another $2k in this kickstarter.

My biggest issue, Stefan, (besides we consumers finding out about the new size upon delivery) is that the new CBS system is restrictive in regards to a 4x4 footprint instead of a 2x2 and so I -need- to use my old pieces with them. So if I want to use my existing KS1 or resin pieces to intermingle to make what I need, I get topsy-turvy terrain that could fall over more easily. The footprint I could handle, but the height difference is what I have been sadly frustrated about. Same goes for sewers. I bought the sewers to augment my dungeon tiles and resin pieces, and now if I have a multi-level sewer/dungeon layout, I have issues.

For example, in the D&D module the Hoard of the Dragon Queen there is a 2-story lodge; to do it accurately to the module I need a mix of CBS and older 2x2 tiles. Because it's a multi-level building, and I like to have the levels stacked on each other for the "ooh and aaah" reveal to my players, it has some wobblyness in certain areas due to the height inconsistencies. When I'm placing terrain or my players move their pieces it can cause issues with things falling over.

I think a good idea may be if you do future releases that are not in the new CBS scale, to specify it as such. (For example if you do expansions to the existing KS1 Game Tiles or KS2 Caverns Tiles) Unless you just stick with the new scale all around, but I think that may cause some issues.
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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by Spiropolous the Minotaur » Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:59 am

I'm sorry if the slight difference in size is bothering some of us. Some of us like to be very exact, I understand that.
Even dwarvenite is not perfect in these regards, sometimes the weather at the factory can influence shrinkage or warpage.

I suppose I can only say that the slight difference, although real, does not bother me so much.

I use these pieces a lot, and this aspect does not bother me. I build some really big setups like 4ft x 8ft and it has not been a real problem to me. In game play, when the table is bumped by players reaching in and out and moving around figures, pieces get moved out of alignment a lot...much more than 1 or 2 mm....

I ask you not to focus on these slight inconsistencies, but to enjoy all the greatness instead. Don't torment yourselves on this issue or you will overlook the wonderful things about the products we make. I apologise for the pieces not all fitting perfectly. But there is still a whole lot of awesome isn't there?

Nate and I build huge builds and it's really fun. The City builder and the Castle will be fitting better together. The dungeon tiles (dwarvenite) also fits OK, although maybe slight shrinkage is there? I think that in most builds it won't matter. I built several levels of a castle and you can see in the photograph i posted that it was fine. The dungeon tiles level WAS maybe 2 mm less wide out of a 12" wide keep. Not a huge difference to me. Perhaps if you wanted to build really huge floors it might start to make a problem? I would suggest that when you want to intermix the various "styles" to use caution, understanding that there could be a slight difference in size. It does not mean they won't work together, just will require you to be more careful when mixing...Or, just keep the dungeons as dungeons and the city as city?

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by teazia » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:16 pm

Based on the Q&A, the 8x8 castle floor pieces measure exactly 203.2mm x 203.2mm. The communication is greatly improving so kudos to DF. You can make up your mind if the 3.2mm difference over 4-6 tiles is acceptable.

But again thumbs up to DF for being transparent!

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by dice4hire » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:13 pm

I'll be sure to dismiss your concerns in a similar way someday.
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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by Harneloot » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:07 pm

Meh - I just don't see it as a big deal. Dungeons and caverns and medieval buildings were not perfect and neither are the ones I build with DF on my table. I still have a great time using the stuff and it has never ever bothered me in my 15+ years of collecting and using them in my games. Y'all can get your panties in a twist about it if you like but, IMHO, it aint worth the angst.

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Re: City Builder Less Versatile Than Expected

Post by lostpict » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:44 pm

I think DF has a great PR opportunity to own this problem. Publish measurement data on key pieces (mean, standard deviation, and variance) from the resin and dwarvenite lines with anticipated dimensions for KS4. Then as the prototype parts roll out of the molds next summer, publish preliminary DF4 data with action plans for final production where issues arise. Then right before final product release, publish production data to show that DF is delivering exactly what was planned.

I fully understand that the creative process is Art, but as a Manufacturing Company with multimillion dollar annual revenue the production process is pure Engineering. If DF wants assistance with some of this, I suspect many of your loyal DF customers who are production engineers would love to assist (including me).
Regards,

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