Dragon lock 3

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bernyleung
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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by bernyleung » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:53 pm

I won't change anybody's mind, but the DL bridge piece is probably only 4" long, maybe 5", because most people don't have a 3-D printer with a larger than 5x5 print tray.
And I don't really see so much a fantasy bridge as just a regular arched bridge. Any extension must have a support pier, otherwise it would not hold its own weight, never mind anything that would cross it. The physics demand it.

Is the DL rendering exactly the same as the DF offering? No. Is it damn close? Perhaps. But that only counts in horseshoes and grenades.

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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by marcoreds » Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:08 pm

I just do not agree that "a bridge is a bridge", so their design couldn't but be like the DF one, and DF one can't but be a copy of something that came before.

We can say that DF took the general idea of the bridge from Lord of the Rings, or general fantasy, or whatever.

But I mean, look at FDG bridge:

Dungeon Bridge.jpg
Dungeon Bridge.jpg (65.72 KiB) Viewed 549 times

and the one DF just did:

Bridge.jpg
Bridge.jpg (80.17 KiB) Viewed 549 times

Is this specific design really the only possible way to do a fantasy bridge, so much so that anybody who does a fantasy bridge can't but incur in this design? Divided in exactly 3 pieces like this? With the 2 lateral bases 6 squares long, and the central one 4 squares long? Come on... Try and google "fantasy bridge" and you can find a few thousands fantasy bridges that have nothing in common with this up here.

So, one argument is:
- The market segment is so small, that it doesn't matter if they copy DF or not, because people who can afford DF will get DF anyway, those who prefer DYO will have this option.

Another completely different one is:
- The fact that their campaigns always happen to pick the same themes that DF just picked is just coincidence. The similarity in some of the designs is also random, and it's because those particular elements are evidently best done that way, DF or not DF.

I might agree with the first one, but for the second one... In another zone of my country they have a wording for this, that is "ccà nisciuno è fesso!".

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Riley
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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by Riley » Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:33 pm

Back when Fat Dragon Games was doing paper dungeons, I remember multiple discussions on the Worldworks Games' boards about how remarkably similar many Fat Dragon products were to paper dungeon products that Worldworks had previously released or teased.

It was sometimes uncanny.

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kodiakbear
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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by kodiakbear » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:10 pm

With FDG I think it is very important to look at what themes they already did in paper craft before forming an opinion on what degree they are coping DF. Others may form an opinion of them as doing no coping or as doing nothing but copying. Personally the sewers were the only thing that I think FDG copied and I defiantly could never prove it and that would not keep me from backing a FDG KS.

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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by AnimeSensei » Thu Sep 21, 2017 2:26 pm

I disagree.

When was the armorcast system done? My issue isn't necessarily with what you are referring to, it's timing. Every time DF has a kickstarter, the focus of FDG's next kickstarter has the same themes as DF had. That's my issue.

You're partially right on the docks in regards to my opinion. If Adventurescapes' docks were INSANELY popular and were a major project, then yes, I would have to wonder why DF would jump on those coat tails. As they are a modest kickstarter, I don't see an issue. Or for another example, if DF were to suddenly do a whole line of miniature themed kickstarters that were in direct competition with Reaper Bones, I would feel kind of uneasy about it as it would feel like a change in operation to match Reaper instead of DF being it's own "terrain first" thing. Reaper has had success with Bones and I feel if DF changed the majority of their operations to copy it, it would feel off. A small sampling of minis is fine, and I feel the same way about FDG's kickstarters. A bit of inspiration from DF is fine with me, copying whole kickstarter themes to be the heart and soul of their own KS is not.

My beef is that FDG's projects seem to follow the themes of DF's projects. I have no problem with FDG's dwarven theme at all. I can look past their first kickstarter because dungeons and caverns are BASIC themes. But if you look at how they changed their way the pieces came together in their second kickstarter to essentially match DF's CBS line instead of keeping the original Dragonlock layout, I hope you can see what makes me uneasy. (Look at it compared to their first KS, they changed the whole way the pieces come together to look like the new CBS system instead of their own Dragonlock system from their first KS.) Now with their 3rd kickstarter their themes include mountains, castles, and traps. It's just too close for me. They obviously use DF heavily for inspiration, and while that's ok on its own, it does bug me that they just do a re-hash of DF's last kickstarter(s). I like their dwarven hall theme; I wish they would focus more on their own themes or at least give a little bit of time to occur before doing what DF just did. That's all.
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Oldent
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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by Oldent » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:27 pm

AnimeSensei wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:04 pm
I would also just like to throw my voice in that the timing of FDG's Dragonlock kickstarter themes seem to align pretty much on point with DF's immediately previous offerings. I agree that things can look similar because they are the same environments, but it does appear to me that FDG looks to see what DF has made popular and just makes a STL file of it. I feel they ride on DF's coat tails. Adventurescapes at least is doing a theme that DF hasn't done before (docks) and what people who buy DF have been asking for for years (2x2 tavern/inn style pieces). My $0.02.
I could bring up how much City system looks like Armourcast but that is no better argument than yours. You don't paint or cast so I know you are not familiar with it. 2" by 2" is going to look like 2"by 2" because the format is limited. The texture is not the same.The process is not the same. The form follows the format.A bridge is a bridge a door is a door.
If I follow your argument DF can not make a dock in 2" by 2" format because it will be a copy.All of the 4" by 4" building are copies. DF Bridge is a copy so I must be offended.Please this is not a good argument.
Thank you for being polite.
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AnimeSensei
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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by AnimeSensei » Thu Sep 21, 2017 1:04 pm

I would also just like to throw my voice in that the timing of FDG's Dragonlock kickstarter themes seem to align pretty much on point with DF's immediately previous offerings. I agree that things can look similar because they are the same environments, but it does appear to me that FDG looks to see what DF has made popular and just makes a STL file of it. I feel they ride on DF's coat tails. Adventurescapes at least is doing a theme that DF hasn't done before (docks) and what people who buy DF have been asking for for years (2x2 tavern/inn style pieces). My $0.02.
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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by Oldent » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:40 am

Thank you gentlemen.This has always been a small market. DF has set a high standard. Most people are can't spend this kind of money.Most people create their own dungeon tiles. DM Scotty is a good example. Dragon lock appeals to people who build and paint.I am old fashioned and prefer resin and Hydrocal cast.I was building cast dungeon tiles when Dwarven Forge began business. I have a early Master Master Ogre's Den.It did not like the bow ties so that was all I purchased.None of this is new or original.Much of it is inspired by role playing D&D. That is why so much of it is so similar.
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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by marcoreds » Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:35 am

And that's what I am doing Rabbit, I fully agree on this!

In fact, there's such a huge variety of settings, that DF alone can't tackle them all on its own - DF actually struggles to keep what it has already done in stock... they sure can't handle keeping stock of tens of different themed basic tiles!

And I don't think they should. I will be pledging fo Adventurescapes - all 3 themes - to have some different tiles to introduce variants in the setups. This will in now way impact my pledge, that I am finalizing, of KS5, I'm just deciding what pieces I like more (but if I wasn't pledging for Adventurescapes, I would not just add that sum to DF pledge).

My point is just, I am actually a lot more likely to be interested to pledge on terrain that is DIFFERENT, at least in some part, fron DF (but compatible with it) rather than getting the same things I got from DF.

And it makes no sense to me to offer copies of what DF does. Just do things that are compatible but somewhat different.

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Re: Dragon lock 3

Post by Rabbit Burner » Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:59 am

Love a good forum argument - as no one wins, but going to wade in on this anyway :D

in fact its just a few points to note.

No one has exclusive rights to a dungeon miniature 3D representation.

I have pointed this out before - tell 10 people to draw a dungeon
9 will draw something very similar and one will be drawing the scantily clad princess.

The point being dungeons look the same - we all have a very similar idea to what a dungeon looks like
Stone walls, flagstone floors, wooden doors etc.
So if 10 people design a modular 3D dungeon - then they are going to look very similar.

I mean how many modular designs that are feasible to bring to the market are there?

And if you want something that is a little different to what current sellers provide - should you wait for them to produce them or do it yourself?

For instance Adventurescapes use a modular style to building their Alchemy Room and Tavern that DF use for Dungeons and Caverns.
Why ? Probably because its a simple design that is proven to work and is compatible with other providers of 3d miniature terrain - such as DF.

To my mind - let DF worry about plagiarism and use whatever seller provides you with the product you want.
Hopefully DF don't get all GW and start trying to hold onto their market through the courts and focus on making gorgeous terrain that fends off the competition.
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