New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Yukon Cornelius
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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Yukon Cornelius » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:03 pm

I guess I'm having a little trouble understanding why having sci-fi furnishings would be such a make or break proposition for so many gamers. I realize that the situation now is that furnishings come from a variety of sources that aren't necessarily to scale with each other, and that it would be preferable that DF make furnishings to match their setting. However, are Sci-Fi gamers really losing anything if they put those various furnishings in a DF setting? Or are you saying, Rabidfox, that sci-fi gamers aren't buying ANY of the scenery, whether it be DF or Grendel or Ainsty, and so on, until there's some consistency to be had?

And I see your point, RF, about fantasy gamers feeling the opportunity cost if Sci-Fi is not successful. I own a lot of sci-fi, but I'm primarily a fantasy gamer, and in my selfish moments I prefer that DF concentrate their efforts in that direction. Fantasy gamers have been DF's bread and butter from the beginning, and they'd be practically guaranteed to have better sales, at least in the short term, by catering to that market exclusively. But, they're trying to branch out, and have produced four sets for sci-fi in what for DF is a spectacularly short period of time. I don't think that the larger gaming community has given them enough credit for that.

Hopefully, Gamma will happen, and when it does it will further enhance an already good line to the point that the fence-sitters will come down and play. If not, they don't know what they're missing.

Law
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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Law » Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:15 am

Absolutely -- I wasn't trying to say anything negative about anyone on the forums, or criticizing anyone's buying practices. We all have reality to deal with, and I'd never be so obnoxious as to attack someone for posting "I could only buy 1" or "I had to pass on this set."

I personally hope that RF is right and that a lot of these "almost-customers" take the leap once the SF furnishings come out. If there are tons of these guys, maybe the influx of cash will allow DF to expand in ways none of us have really anticipated. If nothing else, I hope that SF Gamma doesn't sit there unsold because people suddenly have other concerns, or decide they don't like the set for some reason.

But we'll see -- I think the "historical" approach alluded to earlier is the best one. There's really no way to be sure whether or not something was a good idea until you've seen its consequences.

L

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by jkratzer » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:53 am

L,

I suspect GS knows you (and I, a couple of posts back) aren't talking about him when nailing 'talk is cheap' signs around the forum. I certainly HOPE so!

GS, YOU have done one HELL of a lot to promote Sci-Fi Df, both here on the forum, and out in the gaming community. RabidFox* is the same way; always talking DF Sci-Fi in a positive way. Yeah, the Fox* IS a little more aggressive in pushing Sci-Fi, but that's because he is almost exclusively SF gaming. I myself push EVERYTHING DF makes, because as a D&D/DS GM, who dearly LOVES s-f in general, I'll crossover from near-Medieval to far-future in a NY minute, because it's so much FUN to watch the gamers faces go "HUH?" when they come punding down a stone-walled dungeon corridor, blast open a door with a magic missile or some such, and find themselves falling onto the Bridge of the USS Enterprise, or some such baloney!

At the same time, RabidFox* IS correct about the need for SF Furniture, because a starship, or a star base, is going to have a more cohesive look/feel than a dungeon or castle, where the furnishing will be a more eclectic collection - unless Martha Stewart decorated the dungeon! :D:D

No, the ones L and I are constantly railing against are the one-posters who whine about slow development times, who piss 'n' moan that DF "Doesn't support gamers' needs" and say "IF they make this, or that, AND price it cheap, AND paint it the right colors, AND, AND, AND" until my stomach turns and churns; THOSE are the ding-a-lings that I hate. At least, I THINK that's what L means. If not, L, would you PLEASE correct me, before I dig both of us in deeper?

As the commercial says, "Sorry, Charlie," and goes on from there. TANSTAAFL!

Sorry for the rant, but those kind of people REALLY get my dander up. Also, I sincerely apologize to RF, GS, Celtchief, and any other regulars who feel I have personally attacked them in this rant. That is NOT my intent; I'm hunting whiners, not legitimate forum members who are honest DF people.

Jeff, Stefan, Lori, Mari; Keep 'em comin', we'll keep buying them - as long as we can afford it!

See ya!

Jim

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by RabidFox* » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:30 am

Let me try to give you a short answer to your contention Celtchief.
For room's sake I am not going to use any quotes.

Celtchief, you keep saying that the Sci-Fi gamer should be happy with the fact that Dwarven Forge has finally come out with some Sci-Fi Master Maze.
If the product is not produced to the point of true viability, which Sci-Fi Master Maze has not yet achieved, why then should anyone be happy Celtchief?
If the Sci-Fi Master Maze product is not taken to the point of full viability, why should not every fantasy gamer here complain about how Dwarven Forge wasted all that money?
A "wait 'n see" attitude with Sci-Fi Master Maze Celtchief is not a reasonable business action and a sure way to waste the investment because the system is not yet stable so therefore not currently viable so thereby waiting is simply a wake for the death of the system.

As far as the holding back of sales by gamers, it is fact duly gathered by intelligent questions over a multi-state area.
It is not simply anecdotal.
I know the REAL definition of that accusation of yours Celtchief.
In my historical, military science and psychological training the assembly of measures to acquire actual workable data I aced and have applied it to my interviews with gamers.
The data is therefore not heresay or anecdotal; it is fact.
BTW Celtchief, I do not want satisfaction; I want a viable Sci-Fi terrain system.

You keep bringing up how fantasy gamers are the put-upon gamers with current Dwarven Forge terrain releases and you claimed they had only received one new release in four years which is not correct.
They have received actually one new set, a new re-packaged set, two new individual pieces, a special door deal and a new indirect release set (DOE) all in about three years time.
Additionally, they will be receiving two more indirect new release sets this year with the Cavern sets and most likely a new room set in August.
I do not see a problem here for fantasy gamers Celtchief.

Celtchief, Fantasy does not need new sets & pieces right now.
Fantasy has a perfectly viable terrain system already!
Anything added right now to Fantasy Master Maze is pure frosting.
The need currently it to bring Sci-Fi Master Maze to viability and to expand the Caverns Master Maze system.
A direct and an indirect new release every three or so years should provide the new blood fantasy gamers need and they have been receiving this support the whole time Celtchief.

You ended your contention very civilly and let me do so also by thanking you for the sharing.
There are matters raised previously I have left uncommented on to perserve harmony and civility.
My hope is that this discussion will allow folks to understand how serious a matter it is that Dwarven Forge bring Sci-Fi Master Maze up to viability and that the most likely key to viability is for the "sooner rather than later" release of a qualitative and quantitative furnishings set for Sci-Fi Master Maze.

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Celtchief » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:44 pm


Celtchief, I never said that "everything" had to be out for Sci-Fi Master Maze immediately.

I never said you did. Did I? I don't recall mentioning anyone by name.


I was & am saying that there is a serious number of sales of Sci-Fi Master Maze not happening because of the definitive lack of a Sci-Fi furnishings set.

You may be right. My point is that, from what I can tell, the people who feel this way feel this way based on anecdotal evidence. If you are right, then you will have the satisfaction of being right. I have no doubt that if Jeff and Stefan thought that they could bring out everything they thought would sell tomorrow, they would.


Additionally Celtchief, I am not the only one to have pointed that out over the last 18 months either.

I never said you were. If I in some insinuated that, I apoligize.


Furthermore Celtchief, let me expand on a point that GS, IO and whitewind, among others, have brought up along with me on several occasions.
You can get by in Fantasy gaming with a room that contains very few or even no furnishings, but in Sci-Fi gaming, just as in modern gaming, that does not work.
Even the largest of rooms are filled with objects unless they have been purposely cleaned out in the scenario.
This Sci-Fi furnishings set that so many of us continually sound off about is far more critical to sci-fi gaming and thereby to the success of Sci-Fi Master Maze than it ever would, no, could be for fantasy gaming and Fantasy Master Maze.

I have heard this argument, and I do not disagree with it. My post had nothing to do with this argument or even anything to do with WHEN Sci-Fi furnishing should be brought out, but more to do with the fact that there are people who have waited for sets they have wanted longer then the Sci-FI folk, and they have taken at face value that Stefan and Jeff are doing what they can, when they can.



Celtchief, Sci-Fi Master Maze should come quicker than what it has taken Fantasy Master Maze to do.

I agree. It has done so, and will probably continue to do so if they new furniture set does well as you predict. I have no problem with Sci-Fi getting a good base start.


All of the errors and misfortunes should have been taken care of during the Fantasy Master Maze development.
I do not see the validity then to your point that Sci-Fi people should be happy with how much they have received in only four years.

People should be happy with what Sci-Fi has brought out. You don't think people should be happy with what DF has done in four years? DF is a blessing, and each of us who collects it SHOULD be happy that Stefan is crazy enough to do this. Pure fantasy has gotten one small set in four years, and I think people should be happy with that as well. WHY? Because this is a hobby, and it should make people happy, not sad or angry or frustrated. Stefan and Jeff have that job.... it's not ours...our is to enjoy and be happy with their product. People who are unhappy about what a niche market gaming company is doing should be.... paying closer to attention to the misery in the rest of the world....


Quite realistically Celtchief, if we were looking at purely a release development schedule with no financial concerns, Sci-Fi Master Maze should have all pieces comparable to the Fantasy Master Maze system inside five years time.

But there are financial concerns, so this is irrelevant.



In comparing Sci-Fi Master Maze to Fantasy Master Maze there are only two truly unique SF pieces that Fantasy Master Maze has nothing comparable to - the Curved Wall Fill-in and the Computer Panel.
Almost all other pieces existed in some form already in Fantasy Master Maze first.
Granted, a few Sci-Fi Master Maze pieces like the vents were developed concurrently with like Fantasy Master Maze pieces, but then they are not unique, are they?
The basic design is in both genres then.

I agree.. and that is why Sci-Fi sets came quicker. And Sci-Fi sets do have unique pieces, that is a good thing. Remember, I collect Sci-Fi as well.


Celtchief, Dwarven Forge cannot afford to be in the position of "wait and see".
Consumers can do that with no economic consequences, but manufacturers do not have that luxury.
Gaming industry companies which have decided to do the "wait and see" thing are not with us anymore.
That attitude is completely fatal for companies in this industry.
Even the "Evil Empire" knows that; it keeps re-inventing and/or re-shaping itself every five to seven years and thereby keeps growing at a truly ugly rate for the non-GW player.

I don't think DF should "wait and see" with their proven succesful lines... only with Sci-FI, which is not proven succesful. I do not think the fate of DF hinges on Sci-FI... In fact, in my humble opinion, I think DF would be stronger right now if they had not brought out Sci-Fi. I have no proof, so don't ask me to back it up. It is just my opinion. Feel free to disagree.


Celtchief, what I am simply saying in all this and elsewhere on the same subject is that the Sci-Fi Master Maze furnishings set "Gamma" has to be released soon so as to maintain the viability of Sci-Fi Master Maze.

Once more, I think you may be right. Sadly, you are dealing with a historian. What this means is when people ask me about Bush and the Iraq war, if it is a good or bad thing... I say "Well, we should probably wait about 20 years to answer that" So... is the Sci-FI Gamma the magic cure for the Sci-Fi line.. I kind of hope it is, but I guess we should wait a few years before we figure that out. Now, Stefan and Jeff don't have that luxary...they need to decide now. I hope they choose right for DF as a whole.



Gamers do give up on game companies when releases get sketchy and they will give up on Dwarven Forge's Sci-Fi Master Maze if the releases continue to be so sporatic.

How is that different then fantasy gamers giving or not giving up if the release is sporadic. Fantasy has been more sporadic then Sci-Fi for the past few years.... so... should we be worried about them giving up? Furthermore, this is also your opinion, you may be right... but DF has gotten much less sporadic, and Sci-Fi is just one of their lines, and NOT their breadwinner in my opinion. It just has to wait it's turn right now, like fantasy did, and caverns did...and DoE will have to. Dem's da breaks.


None of us here want that, do we Celtchief?

C'mon Rabidfox, you're better then asking a rhetorical question that makes it look like if I disagree with you I am condemning DF to sporadic releases. I mean, really, I disagree with you, but that does not mean I want DF to have sporadic releases, just for the record. I just posted my opinion, it in no way was meant to hurt DF's release schedule.

Seriously Rabidfox, my original post was not directly aimed at you, but instead it was to give my opinion in general. My basic point is that Sci-Fi people SHOULD be happy with their toys, let the other sets get a little traction, and wait patiently for their next toy. I know you feel DF is making a big mistake. I don't. We disagree, and that's that. Of course, this point is directed at you, since you used my name so many times that it was obvious you are addressing me directly. In the future feel free to contact me privately at Crazyscotsman@gmail.com, so we can avoid having a conversation between the two of us on public boards.

Also Rabidfox, I have a lot of respect for you as a Sci-FI gamer, there are many points I would not dispute you on. I think your general knowledge is quite good of the genre. Also, as I have said many times, you may be spot on when it comes to the impact of the furniture sets. I certainly do not mean any disrespect to you by disagreeing with you. You have made many wonderful contributions to the board, and are a champion for DF Sci-Fi. Keep it up!

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by RabidFox* » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:39 pm

Celtchief, I never said that "everything" had to be out for Sci-Fi Master Maze immediately.
I was & am saying that there is a serious number of sales of Sci-Fi Master Maze not happening because of the definitive lack of a Sci-Fi furnishings set.
Additionally Celtchief, I am not the only one to have pointed that out over the last 18 months either.

Furthermore Celtchief, let me expand on a point that GS, IO and whitewind, among others, have brought up along with me on several occasions.
You can get by in Fantasy gaming with a room that contains very few or even no furnishings, but in Sci-Fi gaming, just as in modern gaming, that does not work.
Even the largest of rooms are filled with objects unless they have been purposely cleaned out in the scenario.
This Sci-Fi furnishings set that so many of us continually sound off about is far more critical to sci-fi gaming and thereby to the success of Sci-Fi Master Maze than it ever would, no, could be for fantasy gaming and Fantasy Master Maze.

Celtchief, Sci-Fi Master Maze should come quicker than what it has taken Fantasy Master Maze to do.
All of the errors and misfortunes should have been taken care of during the Fantasy Master Maze development.
I do not see the validity then to your point that Sci-Fi people should be happy with how much they have received in only four years.
Quite realistically Celtchief, if we were looking at purely a release development schedule with no financial concerns, Sci-Fi Master Maze should have all pieces comparable to the Fantasy Master Maze system inside five years time.

In comparing Sci-Fi Master Maze to Fantasy Master Maze there are only two truly unique SF pieces that Fantasy Master Maze has nothing comparable to - the Curved Wall Fill-in and the Computer Panel.
Almost all other pieces existed in some form already in Fantasy Master Maze first.
Granted, a few Sci-Fi Master Maze pieces like the vents were developed concurrently with like Fantasy Master Maze pieces, but then they are not unique, are they?
The basic design is in both genres then.

Celtchief, Dwarven Forge cannot afford to be in the position of "wait and see".
Consumers can do that with no economic consequences, but manufacturers do not have that luxury.
Gaming industry companies which have decided to do the "wait and see" thing are not with us anymore.
That attitude is completely fatal for companies in this industry.
Even the "Evil Empire" knows that; it keeps re-inventing and/or re-shaping itself every five to seven years and thereby keeps growing at a truly ugly rate for the non-GW player.

Celtchief, what I am simply saying in all this and elsewhere on the same subject is that the Sci-Fi Master Maze furnishings set "Gamma" has to be released soon so as to maintain the viability of Sci-Fi Master Maze.
Gamers do give up on game companies when releases get sketchy and they will give up on Dwarven Forge's Sci-Fi Master Maze if the releases continue to be so sporatic.
None of us here want that, do we Celtchief?

Law
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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Law » Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:20 pm

Very well said -- and, if I may say, far more sane-sounding than my rant...

L

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Celtchief » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:10 pm

Hey all,

First off, let me start out by saying I own 10 Sci-Fi sets...I'm a fan, I want furnishings.

But DF has brought out 4 Sci-Fi sets, 3 small and 1 big, in the time it brought out DoE and Fantasy Floors. Sci-Fi has gotten more diverse pieces quicker the the original fantasy line, a benefit of the years of doing the fantasy sets. There are 23 (or so) distinct Sci-Fi pieces, including some, like the curved piece to fit around curved walls, that fantasy does not have yet. Do your remember how long it took for DF to come out with a second style of door for fantasy! The Cavern people have waited YEARS for a new set.

For a pure fantasy set it will also have been years by the time we get our surprise.

My point is that Sci-Fi has not been neglected, it has grown quicker and with more variance then the original fantasy sets, and it will probably have it's furnishing set as well.

Sci-Fi will come from DF when they are ready for it. No on has had to wait longer then the people wanting the new rivers and lakes, yet they have always been patient and gracious during their wait. Now it is Sci-Fi's turn to wait, and if the bulk of Sci-Fi potential customers cannot accept that because they feel DF is not commited to them, well, it is important to remember that it is the current customer base that has helped DF turn around from it's near disaster, not potential customers that are in "wait and see" mode.

Could DF make more money if they can tap into the Sci-Fi group, which so far they apparently have not since so many are waiting... well, some are convinced yes...but all the evidence is anecdotal. I guess DF will have to "Wait and see".

I hope it does work out for everyone, and I know Stefan and Jeff are not going to risk DF going under again, so they will bring out the new Sci-Fi sets when they are able, and I will probably buy 2 :)


If some of my above facts are wrong, please, let me know... if my opinion is wrong...well... such is life. :)
Robert

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Ghenghis Ska » Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:31 pm


But the impression I've gotten is that this is a niche product for a small but loyal band of fans, and that the nature of the product makes it unlikely that it's ever going to grow that much.

That Describes most of Sci-Fi in regards to RPG products, and even in some aspects Wargaming, while I am sure RabidFox* would be one to point out that Sci-Fi is popular within the Sci-Fi Genere it is Very Niche as to what Verse you are in. I play SW, RabidFox plays BattleTech, Some people play Traveler, others StarShip Troopers, Gamgs of Mega City One, WH40K, i could go on. But within in each of those verses they have a look and feel that doesn't always translate to another, making SF very niche.

Df did a great job making pretty Generic Terrain, but Sci-Fi will always be niche byit's nature, Sci-Fi covers the Futureistic, while Fantasy tends to coverthe past. And for many Fantasy settings the vision of the past is more common becuase they many based on the same thing fantasy will always have a bigger market becuase it can cross easier. For me honestly I want to see more SciFi sets but 1-2 a year is fine by mine, with the increase in products to buy i would like to have a chance to get everything. i have no problems waiting, if i know it will be done at some point, i have patience.

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Law » Wed Mar 22, 2006 2:53 pm

I already sorta said as much, but cost is the one, primary, central, most common factor I hear raised against the purchase of DF.

That's why when the price started to creep up, I sounded a small alarm to indicate that if DF wants to grow, they need to find a way to keep costs DOWN, and that nothing else would matter if that weren't brought under control.

Unfortunately, it's looking more and more like DF is just a very small niche product. It may not be ABLE to grow. Fact is, we're in a small niche of a small niche of a small niche here.

Most people simply don't care about gaming terrain. It's an odd thing to care about. First of all, many people simply don't game. But within that hobby, you basically have people interested in RPGs and people interested in wargaming. RPG players like to use their imagination and don't feel the need for terrain -- at MOST, some kind of basic minis to show spatial relationships are on some occasions helpful. Wargamers care a little about terrain, but frequently get by with cheap, preprinted maps, or with basic stuff they can get or make for cheap. If they REALLY care, the fact is they probably have a venue with professional-quality, impressive terrain they neither have to buy nor store, so it simply isn't an issue. If you wargame, you do it somewhere, and that place probably has huge tables. Plus, wargames tend to be "outdoor" locales, not necessarily suited to things like DF.

Short version: RPG fans don't really need ANY physical product to play beyond the core rulebooks, and wargamers care more about minis than the grass they're standin' on.

So to find someone who cares at ALL is a task -- then to find someone willing to make terrain purchases a sizeable part of their budget....?

Without the interweb, I doubt DF would even exist. 20 years ago, this sort of product could probably not happen. There are simply too few of us interested, and without something like the net to keep us together, it would be near impossible to find a sizeable enough market to stay in business.

So I wonder whether the company can ever grow that much. SOME people can be brought in, sure, but I wonder if enough could come to make much of a difference. The SF line might grow a lot, and maybe enough SF gamers are out there to really turn things around. But the impression I've gotten is that this is a niche product for a small but loyal band of fans, and that the nature of the product makes it unlikely that it's ever going to grow that much.

I say this as a professional philosopher, btw -- DF, like philosophy, is simply never going to appeal to the majority of people. You have to get used to that idea.

L

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