New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Celtchief
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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Celtchief » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:51 pm

Wow!

Did we ever put a stake through this topic with our debate...heh....

So...

How about an ogre's den type piece for Sci-FI... a one shot set, such as the interior of a shuttle....

RabidFox*
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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by RabidFox* » Fri Mar 24, 2006 5:01 pm

In all my areas of study and in my work experience, "anecdotal" is used as a critical adjective to demean (often unjustly) someone's work or to point out information gathering that was done without true measure.
In other words, the data is worthless.
It is also frequently used as a criticism of work done that a person does not agree with, but does not want to take the actual effort in time, money and "pavement pounding" to actually disprove.

Meanwhile, when using a measure that has been used multiple times that appears to predict buying behavior, the data from that cannot be demeaned accurately in such a fashion.
That is what I did.
That is why I reacted in the fashion I did.

Your factor parameters L are good ones:
Single Source
Anonymity
Statistical Content
Specualtion
Additionally, you explained them very well.

I could point out how so and found myself doing so for 20 minutes.
I then realized where I was typing at.
I erased it; too professing for a good number here.
Some here would just say, "There goes RF* again!" without actually reading the text so I thought I would just save everyone the time and DF the forum space and kill the full form.

Simply put L, you did a good job of explaining the situation and showing both sides for those who are really reading what you wrote.
I will stop there with that.

Back on subject.
Anyone have any more ideas for what we want for Sci-Fi furnishings?
http://www.dwarvenforge.com/dwarvenforu ... php?id=994 is the thread I am posting them at.
I have received several messages so far and even a couple of messages promising lists, but I still have not yet received those lists.
I have been putting everything I have received on that one thread.
I hope everyone thinks the list is well rounded.
Please feel free to message me if you think anything is missing on it.
I will get it on there!
Please remember to not post directly to that thread.
We are trying to leave that thread uncluttered and purely just the list.

Everyone, enjoy your Master Maze!

Law
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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Law » Fri Mar 24, 2006 4:23 pm

Just an aside, something I was thinking:

I find the whole "anecdotal v. scientific" debate quite interesting. I would be curious to hear what people think is required for any evidence provided on these forums, in any debate, to qualify as anything other than purely anecdotal.

Personally, I don't see "anecdotal" as a pejorative term. It simply means that evidence is not scientific, and frequently, that is necessary. Not everything is science, and not everything admits of scientific accuracy. You can't provide anything beyond anecdotal evidence that someone loves you, you can't provide anything but anecdotal evidence that a work of art is any good, you can't provide anything but anecodtal evidence about a great many things. Scientific evidence is a rare bird.

RF, I have no problem with the claims you've made here, and I trust your knowledge of the industry and your analysis. You've shown many times that you know what you are talking about. But I see why someone just tuning in could see you as providing anecdotal evidence. I think the reason your posts can be read by someone as providing only anecdotal evidence would be something like the following:

1. Single source -- any time a single poster offers their experience, it can seem more anecdotal than if multiple posters indicate similar experiences. Even if you are talking about conversations with many people, it is tempting to brand anything reported by a single member of the forum as anecdotal.

Expertise here could be seen as irrelevant. Experts are wrong sometimes -- economists, historians, even physicists and engineers. If an expert says something, it is still anecdotal until other conditions are met -- including the agreement of other experts, or the citing of evidence beyond the status of the speaker.

2. Anonymity -- any time someone posts a reference that fails to provide names, it can seem anecdotal. If someone says "I spoke to many people" it doesn't indicate what it would if someone posted "I spoke to X from store Y, and Z from store B," etc.
Of course, there are very good reasons to keep things anonymous. But the consequence is the same -- if you can't list exactly who said exactly what, it can sound anecdotal.

To take an example from the past: how many retailers were angry that DF went to direct-sales-only? Well, first, we'd have to tally up every retailer in the country and get an opinion. Until we do that, all evidence is anecdotal, I would think. If you speak to 50 retailers, your evidence is solid and convincing -- but still anecdotal. Of course, with information about the share of the market represented by those retailers, etc, then things change. But it's still anecdotal when we don't know anything about to whom you are speaking.


3. Statistical context -- No matter how many people one speaks to, it seems like any study, to approach scientific accuracy, would have to include information about what these people represent. How large are their stores? What percentage of the market do they reach? And so on. Without that sort of information, it's tough to gauge the accuracy of a conclusion.

4. Speculation -- Since this debate is taking place about what people WILL do, not what they HAVE done, it invokes a whole new set of factors. Anyone who says "I would totally do X if Y were to happen" is not providing the sort of information that lends itself to scientific accuracy. For that to happen, we'd have to study patterns of what people HAVE done, and then extrapolate future courses of action from that. Their own personal testimony is, frankly, likely to be a factor of lesser significance.

To use the recent debate as an example -- what if the SF furnishings come out, and everyone hates them? Unlikely, I know. But -- some people said they weren't crazy about the console in Beta. And I know at the HA forums some people objected to the generic style of the SF design DF uses. And some people prefer steampunk or cyberjunk to the current design. As many people have posted, there are LOTS of ways to do SF, maybe more than with fantasy. So if DF comes out with furnishings, it's entirely possible that many people who have said "I would only buy if DF puts out furnishings" would still NOT buy.

In fact, to say that DF needs to "show that it really supports the SF line" or anything worded that vaguely invites problems -- it makes sense on the surface, and it is easy to agree with. But DF could do all sorts of specific things, and still be told by some non-customers "Well, that's not what I call really supporting the line!" This way, the conclusion can never be proven false -- no matter what happens, there's no circumstance in which the claim "Person X will do Y if Z happens" is true, because we can constantly reinterpret Z. According to people like Popper (and he has his critics), claims need to be falsifiable to count as science. If the claim can always be interpreted to be correct, because its wording is open to interpretation, it isn't science. Science would be "I would buy if DF puts out any furnishing set at all, no matter what." Then, you are right if you buy, and wrong if you don't, no excuses.


Anyway, this is just idle speculation on my part about what constitutes a scientific study of something like this. It's not meant as an insult to anyone or even as an indication that anyone's conclusions are wrong. I just am curious about what something would have to look like to count as more-than-anecdotal on a forum like this.

L

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by jkratzer » Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:43 pm

Hey Robert!

Want Narrow Passages; Yeah, You and Half the Known MM Gaming Universe!

Memo to Jeff: Next Repeater Run, include Narrow Passages - and get Stefan to work on SF Narrows! (Right after the furniture Gamma).

See ya!


Jim

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Celtchief » Thu Mar 23, 2006 11:18 pm

Hey all,

Once more, in case it is lost in the details, I would like to reiterate that I am looking forward to a Sci-Fi furnishing set. I think it is forthcoming pretty soon, by DF standards anyhow. I think it will be sooner then later.

Will it be the magic bullet for DF Sci-Fi... now that is the question.

Either way, I think Rabidfox and I agree more then we disagree.

And Rabidfox, I still really think people should be happy with what DF has done.... Most of all the Stefan and Jeff!

As for you point about the fantasy sets, I will concede it, though a repackaged set and new doors are not exactly earth shattering. But, I will concede that DF has brought out more fantasy stuff then I stated to.

As for you anecdotal vs. scientific gathering of information... Well, I am not going to impune your character by disagreeing with you. I am willing to go on record to say that their is a high probability that you are right.

I hope you can see how little I actually disagree with you... I tried to make it very clear in my previous post that I am on your side up. We are just having a friendly discussion about the finer points of some issues.

And Rabidfox, I not only ended my message civilly, but I was trying to be civil throughout it. I hope when you picture these words you see someone smiling and cheerful, merely speculating on a company that I have no control over...much like I talk about baseball trades. I mean, c'mon, it is just a hobby! An addictive wallet draining hobby, but a hobby just the same.

And JKratzer, you said nothing offensive in your post, no worries mate.

Off to WoW land

jkratzer
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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by jkratzer » Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:40 pm

Also, Nanite, if you want, you can go the Hirst Arts route and use 1/4" foamcore as a 'subfloor' and build your DF on THAT, and have even larger buildings!
OR, you can get as crazy as I did, and use either Fantasy or SF floor pieces to build a BIG floor by making a mold of multiple pieces and then pour your own in resin. It's more work, but then again, ANYTHING that adds usability to the medium is worth the effort! As always, I checked with Jeff (as business manager at DF) to make sure they don't object, and he's never complained, as long as it's clearly understood, this stuff is for MY use only - and, I DO NOT duplicate anything they already make; I don't do 4x6 or 6x6 floors, I DID do 6" SF walls, but destroyed the mold and both pieces after the Beta came out with them (mine looked rotten by comparison anyway; who'd WANT 'em?). As long as I keep things that way, Jeff doesn't scream at me, and I don't see why he'd scream at you. If you're interested, let me know and I'll re-post a more detailed description of how to do the custom pieces.
So, there are multiple ways to beat the bug if you just go looking for the flyswatter (it's usually hanging on the nail by the refrigerator).

See ya!

Jim

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by nanite » Thu Mar 23, 2006 7:26 pm


nanite, why can't the DF out be used to make stand alone buildings, and bunkers for large scale war games?


I don't play any but from watching various ones in my FLGS it looks like DFSci-fi with what is out now could be used to make a number of these things.

IO has shown the power of stacking. With the a few sets you can get a decent sized building, use from the starter a 6x6 foot print of a buildling (4 L 3 walls and a door, for the base) then add in a 6x6 floor from alpha, for the second floor, (and so if people get indside you can lift it off, start the second floor with more corners, use the portholes from beta for windows, with some more corners and you are only limited by the number of sets you have to make taller buildings. Just stack, you want one biger than 6x6, go for 6x8 and add in the other floor from Alpha, and some support pillers, etc.. I can see current DF making buildings and bunkers, even making enterconnected bunkers with the techniques IO and others have done with fliping it over and doing other outside the book thinking with it.

The greatness of DF is it's modular nature, if you start making set buildings they become less modular, and it will put DF into a market that has lots of operations making scenery like that already DF has it's niche in the market it needs to keep that up,

That's a really good point.

Ghenghis Ska
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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Ghenghis Ska » Thu Mar 23, 2006 3:21 pm

nanite, why can't the DF out be used to make stand alone buildings, and bunkers for large scale war games?


I don't play any but from watching various ones in my FLGS it looks like DFSci-fi with what is out now could be used to make a number of these things.

IO has shown the power of stacking. With the a few sets you can get a decent sized building, use from the starter a 6x6 foot print of a buildling (4 L 3 walls and a door, for the base) then add in a 6x6 floor from alpha, for the second floor, (and so if people get indside you can lift it off, start the second floor with more corners, use the portholes from beta for windows, with some more corners and you are only limited by the number of sets you have to make taller buildings. Just stack, you want one biger than 6x6, go for 6x8 and add in the other floor from Alpha, and some support pillers, etc.. I can see current DF making buildings and bunkers, even making enterconnected bunkers with the techniques IO and others have done with fliping it over and doing other outside the book thinking with it.

The greatness of DF is it's modular nature, if you start making set buildings they become less modular, and it will put DF into a market that has lots of operations making scenery like that already DF has it's niche in the market it needs to keep that up,

nanite
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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by nanite » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:04 pm

A good point was brought up about sci-fi wargamers. The DF Sci-FI parts avaialble now are certainly in the RPG and small skirmish games bracket.

While the current DF parts work for larger wargames, but I would love seeing some bits more directed at wargaming. Stand-alone buildings, emplacements, and the like.

Since this would be a completely new direction, it's just a pipe dream of mine.

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New Poll: What should the first Sci-Fi Accessories set be?

Post by Ghenghis Ska » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:08 pm

I agree that within and environment things should look like they go together, but from my game, the Players have been to (Cera, Rodia, Wookiee World C, Trandosha, Kintan, Rhen Var, and two made for my Game World), 8 different Worlds already, not to mention 2 Capital Ships with more Planets on the way For me personally i mix of different terrain ellements is actually something i have been trying to add generate a difference in the civillizations and worlds so that not everything looks the same.

I have Scenery bits from a bunch of different sources (some even hand made), and am always on the look out for more, I will Welcome the DF when it arrives as another source and one i hope gets me a lot of items in one place.
Currently i am trying to get a unique look and feel to Rhen Var, by creating my own Ice to add to the DF (with clear Resin and Hirst Arts) to get a look that says, "Different Planet". Personally for me the various sources i have to go to get items is not a detraction, it is something i like (i have two types of lockers, two styles of beds etc, with actually another set on the way from another source) this means i can say to my self Anisty=Sith/Imperial, Grendel=Republic/Rebel, WWG=Fringe. Each of these can have a use for me becuse for my games i have my players travel to many different worlds with varried elements, and i don't want everything looking the same. So consisitency of style is not an issue for me, my issue is lack of certain items, certian very basic items, that are more RPG related than what is out there for most Sci-fi which seems to be geared toward the Sci-Fi Wargaming market (I don't know how many barricades, and bunkers i have run across in my search for Sci-Fi Terrain one of which i could have a use for but the other i have no desire to purchase at all). Wargaming is IMO much bigger than the Sci-Fi RPG market, but a number of the items can have a cross over.

I can wait, to get a set, of fruniture, i have waited this long, another few months isn't going to kill me. I just want to know something will be done and i think Stefan seems to confirm this that my patience will be rewarded. I have no problems with Fantasy and Sci-Fi living in harmony. I am glad a company is makeing a line i like, and is versitle enough for my purposes. I just want a set at some point.

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